Player Agreement: Rule Change at the DS Camp

[berbax]

Originally Posted by Ruien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are sharing the blue URN system because it's the best solution to the problem you are trying to solve. There is no reason you could not implement it on green.

This matters to the blue server as well, because if green starts doing a roll, then someone will say "blue should be a roll too - just look at green". Do not call any system which invites anyone to join "elitist".

We are against changing DS to a /random roll, we have good reasons to be against it, and we have communicated those reasons effectively and respectfully. Drop the discussion of changing DS to a /random roll and focus instead on implementing an URN discord like Blue has.

Discussion will continue as long as people are providing input and considering changes. While the URN discord on Blue has been suggested, it seems to have its own set of issues based on what I've read. Implementing a /random roll system aligns with other adjustments in the quest line, like the changes made for shady/angry.

Here is the core set of issues I've found from blue server with their URN implementation:

1. Urn cost remains high
2. Guilds are pemanently farming the item still
3. Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server (as it relates to guilds swapping players in and out to keep it locked)

[loramin]

In what world would any of these not be true?

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Urn cost remains high

Urn costs will remain high no matter what system you implement. It has nothing to do with the system, and everything to do with the fact that only one urn enters the server every few days ... but a lot more players than that who want it. Supply and demand.

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Guilds are pemanently farming the item still

"Guilds" will "permanently farm" the item whatever the system, because players at the high-end tend to be guilded, and guilded players (like non-guilded players) want loot for their character. But this isn't some conspiracy: it's just people playing the game.

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server (as it relates to guilds swapping players in and out to keep it locked)

This is the only point you've succeeded at making in this entire thread ... but you still haven't even tried to engage with the fact that while /list might give more opportunities to individuals, it would make things a lot harder for groups of players.

[berbax]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In what world would any of these not be true?

Urn costs will remain high no matter what system you implement. It has nothing to do with the system, and everything to do with the fact that only one urn enters the server every few days ... but a lot more players than that who want it. Supply and demand.

"Guilds" will "permanently farm" the item whatever the system, because players at the high-end tend to be guilded, and guilded players (like non-guilded players) want loot for their character. But this isn't some conspiracy: it's just people playing the game.

This is the only point you've succeeded at making in this entire thread ... but you still haven't even tried to engage with the fact that while /list might give more opportunities to individuals, it would make things a lot harder for groups of players.

Hi Loramin,

If you don't like my suggestions, I invite you to provide an alternative solution to the problem. You’re right that people will continue to farm and sell the urn, but a random roll system would give many more players a chance to obtain the item they need.

As I’ve mentioned multiple times, this proposal aims to address several issues:

Player Health: Reducing the need for unhealthy 24-hour camping sessions.
Community Health: Promoting a fairer environment.
Community Fairness and Opportunity: Ensuring more players have access to the camp, not just those who can dedicate excessive time.

While it may not eliminate the selling of urns, it should improve the overall community experience. Thank you for your feedback. As always, I’m open to alternative suggestions that could also address these concerns.

[Ruien]

Hello,

1. Urn cost remains high
2. Guilds are pemanently farming the item still
3. Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server (as it relates to guilds swapping players in and out to keep it locked)

Maybe you just don't understand how URN discord works?

Urn cost remains high
The urn cost is entirely a function of supply and demand. Angry goblin is a /random roll and the Skargus head MQ is 100k. So, /random is not going to suddenly make Urns affordable.

Guilds are pemanently farming the item still
This is patently false. We have members of ALL of the top guilds in URN discord, as well as many unguilded individuals. Working together, we can compete against farm crews and win. The blue URN discord group has gotten 90%+ of the last 50 urns. And new members are welcomed every week.

Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server
This also is patently false. Each person in the discord is a separate individual, and time spent at the camp is tracked in an "active camp" channel, with a waiting list. As soon as anyone has hit their maximum quota of hours for the day, they are automatically replaced by the next person in the replacement queue. So anyone is able to "/rep add" themselves and jump in when their turn is up. When an Urn drops, the person present with the highest number of accumulated hours gets to loot it, and their hours drop to 0. The daily maximum quota and active group size can be adjusted if needed to ensure everyone has a fair opportunity to earn.

This system is so good, equitable, and effective that it provided the firepower needed to push dedicated farm crews and give everyone a fair shot at earning their Urn.

Finally, a group of people working together killing 5 mobs every 20-minute cycle is relaxing, not "unhealthy". There's a lot of casual conversation both in group and discord, and people pop in and out according to their schedule. Conversely, a random roll kills the community - you log in, roll, and /q; It's antithetical to the community aspect that this game exists for.

[fortior]

Originally Posted by Ruien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Finally, a group of people working together killing 5 mobs every 20-minute cycle is relaxing, not "unhealthy". There's a lot of casual conversation both in group and discord, and people pop in and out according to their schedule. Conversely, a random roll kills the community - you log in, roll, and /q; It's antithetical to the community aspect that this game exists for.

Yeah, huge fan of urn equity, early on in Green there was a crypt equity discord like this as well (hiero points). I would hate for high end loot in P99 to be reduced to a series of log-ins to parked toons, rolls, and then logging back out.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Ruien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hello,



Maybe you just don't understand how URN discord works?

Urn cost remains high
The urn cost is entirely a function of supply and demand. Angry goblin is a /random roll and the Skargus head MQ is 100k. So, /random is not going to suddenly make Urns affordable.

Guilds are pemanently farming the item still
This is patently false. We have members of ALL of the top guilds in URN discord, as well as many unguilded individuals. Working together, we can compete against farm crews and win. The blue URN discord group has gotten 90%+ of the last 50 urns. And new members are welcomed every week.

Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server
This also is patently false. Each person in the discord is a separate individual, and time spent at the camp is tracked in an "active camp" channel, with a waiting list. As soon as anyone has hit their maximum quota of hours for the day, they are automatically replaced by the next person in the replacement queue. So anyone is able to "/rep add" themselves and jump in when their turn is up. When an Urn drops, the person present with the highest number of accumulated hours gets to loot it, and their hours drop to 0. The daily maximum quota and active group size can be adjusted if needed to ensure everyone has a fair opportunity to earn.

This system is so good, equitable, and effective that it provided the firepower needed to push dedicated farm crews and give everyone a fair shot at earning their Urn.

Finally, a group of people working together killing 5 mobs every 20-minute cycle is relaxing, not "unhealthy". There's a lot of casual conversation both in group and discord, and people pop in and out according to their schedule. Conversely, a random roll kills the community - you log in, roll, and /q; It's antithetical to the community aspect that this game exists for.

URN sucks too, VQ raised the price to 200k (maz and cambina in riot now) , urn competed took the camp and price stayed high. Before VQ raised the price you could buy one for 120k from the farmers. Bring back non VQ farmers.

[Ruien]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

URN sucks too, VQ raised the price to 200k (maz and cambina in riot now) , urn competed took the camp and price stayed high. Before VQ raised the price you could buy one for 120k from the farmers. Bring back non VQ farmers.

All this demonstrates is that 120k is not (or is no longer) the market-clearing price for an Urn, and that more urns are demanded at that price than can be supplied. The beauty of URN discord is that I can choose to forgo buying the MQ if I think the price is too high and earn the Urn myself. When farm crews are in control, that is no longer an option, and monopoly pricing takes effect.

When the price of something goes up, there is often a knee-jerk inclination that the new, more-expensive price is "wrong" and the long-time cheaper price was "right". But that is not necessarily true; often, it's the old price that was "wrong" and the price adjustment comes as a result of the imbalance.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Ruien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All this demonstrates is that 120k is not (or is no longer) the market-clearing price for an Urn, and that more urns are demanded at that price than can be supplied. The beauty of URN discord is that I can choose to forgo buying the MQ if I think the price is too high and earn the Urn myself. When farm crews are in control, that is no longer an option, and monopoly pricing takes effect.

When the price of something goes up, there is often a knee-jerk inclination that the new, more-expensive price is "wrong" and the long-time cheaper price was "right". But that is not necessarily true; often, it's the old price that was "wrong" and the price adjustment comes as a result of the imbalance.

the only thing urn helps is folks that dont work like you