DPS: Monk vs. Warrior vs. Rogue vs. Ranger

[Alarria]

You continue to reply to my posts despite me asking you not to, lol. Whatever. However, you are the target of the trolls. I have never been attacked, and VERY rarely in 13 years of lurking and reading have I seen others attacked in normal gameplay conversations. Honestly, these forums have seen less of good discussion with these "DSM" threads. Good honest questions, good answers mostly, then you post, and it's usually fine. However, once you are disagreed with, you begin trying to refute anything that is contrary to what you're saying. Which makes people want to laugh, point and troll. Then the thread devolves into exactly this.

This is just an opinion. You DO NOT have to respond to it, quoting me and then continuing to be the white knight of saving these forums. If you truly care, let it go. Let this rest. Here, I'll help move on:

For DPS, what is a greater contributing factor, given similar gear levels? Better worn haste, or better damage/delay on weapons? I have never played anything but casters, and don't understand the math really. Like 36% haste vs 41%, or 5 more base damage or 5 less delay. I do want to learn. I am leveling a monk whos 53 with a T-staff, and its faster and has a great proc, but with the same haste (CocW) why is it more dps than a 38/40? I know that 0.966 is > than 0.95, but it seems that max hits would be more. Is there a calculating best dps for dummies? =)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Alarria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You continue to reply to my posts despite me asking you not to, lol. Whatever. However, you are the target of the trolls. I have never been attacked, and VERY rarely in 13 years of lurking and reading have I seen others attacked in normal gameplay conversations. Honestly, these forums have seen less of good discussion with these "DSM" threads. Good honest questions, good answers mostly, then you post, and it's usually fine. However, once you are disagreed with, you begin trying to refute anything that is contrary to what you're saying. Which makes people want to laugh, point and troll. Then the thread devolves into exactly this.

This is just an opinion. You DO NOT have to respond to it, quoting me and then continuing to be the white knight of saving these forums. If you truly care, let it go.

I appreciate your opinion. I am giving you mine. Letting the trolls run rampant is the problem, whether you agree with that or not.

If you want to solve the problem, talk to the trolls. If you don't, then you will unfortunately see this issue continue. They will not stop if I leave, they will simply find a new target. That is how they operate.

Originally Posted by Alarria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For DPS, what is a greater contributing factor, given similar gear levels? Better worn haste, or better damage/delay on weapons? I have never played anything but casters, and don't understand the math really. Like 36% haste vs 41%, or 5 more base damage or 5 less delay. I do want to learn. I am leveling a monk whos 53 with a T-staff, and its faster and has a great proc, but with the same haste (CocW) why is it more dps than a 38/40? I know that 0.966 is > than 0.95, but it seems that max hits would be more. Is there a calculating best dps for dummies? =)

An easy starting point is weapon ratios.

Lets look at a cracked staff. 5 damage, 32 delay.

You divide 5/32 to get the ratio of 0.156

Haste reduces the delay of the weapon. An FBSS has 21% worn haste. If you divide 32 by 1.21, you get a new delay of 26.44.

Your cracked staff's ratio is now 5/26.44 = 0.189.

You can do these calculatuons with whatever weapon. Bigger ratio is generally better.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by Alarria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am leveling a monk whos 53 with a T-staff, and its faster and has a great proc, but with the same haste (CocW) why is it more dps than a 38/40? I know that 0.966 is > than 0.95, but it seems that max hits would be more. Is there a calculating best dps for dummies? =)

When thinking about melee damage you need to incorporate the additional bonus damage added when at high levels. I also mostly play casters, so I'm far from an expert on this stuff, but https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Me...bat_and_Damage is helpful.

Here's how I think of it. First, adjust the delay for haste: new delay = old delay / (1 + haste percentage). Second, weapons can generally hit for twice the stated value, so double the damage. Then, add a level-based damage modifier for main hand; wiki suggests it would be 8 or 9 for your level. That's the actual ratio you should be optimizing for.

So, if you have 36% haste and are comparing a 29/30 and a 38/40, the haste makes them 29/22 and 38/28. Doubling the damage and adding 9 gets you 38/22 and 47/28. So the final ratios are 1.72 and 1.68.

This calculation is just for example's sake, as I don't know the actual damage bonus values, and I believe they can be different for 1h and 2h weapons.

I think the other two important considerations is that the damage bonus only applies to main-hand weapon, and that off-hand weapon procs are half the rate of main-hand procs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When thinking about melee damage you need to incorporate the additional bonus damage added when at high levels. I also mostly play casters, so I'm far from an expert on this stuff, but https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Me...bat_and_Damage is helpful.

Here's how I think of it. First, adjust the delay for haste: new delay = old delay / (1 + haste percentage). Second, weapons can generally hit for twice the stated value, so double the damage. Then, add a level-based damage modifier for main hand; wiki suggests it would be 8 or 9 for your level. That's the actual ratio you should be optimizing for.

So, if you have 36% haste and are comparing a 29/30 and a 38/40, the haste makes them 29/22 and 38/28. Doubling the damage and adding 9 gets you 38/22 and 47/28. So the final ratios are 1.72 and 1.68.

This calculation is just for example's sake, as I don't know the actual damage bonus values, and I believe they can be different for 1h and 2h weapons.

I think the other two important considerations is that the damage bonus only applies to main-hand weapon, and that off-hand weapon procs are half the rate of main-hand procs.

You don't add the main hand damage bonus to the weapon's damage when calculating ratio. That has been said a lot on these forums, so it's understandable why you thought that was the case.

You simply add the main hand damage bonus to the final damage number. So if a weapon hits for a maximum of 100 on your character, you would deal 109 damage total after the main hand bonus is applied.

2 handed weapons get an additonal damage bonus if their delay is large enough. I want to say this damage table is accurate for P99: https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1

So in the case of TStaff vs. IFS, TStaff gets +29 damage added to the final damage value, and IFS gets +34 damage added to the final damage value. These values have the main hand damage bonus already added in, and are for a level 60 character.

EDIT: I did do max damage calculations before. This is using a 46/44 weapon on a level 60:

Minus factor can be found in the link starting on line 5285:

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob...one/attack.cpp

Damage Table for a level 60: { 285 Max Extra, 23 Chance, 65 Minusfactor }

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * 231 Strength - 150) / 3) + 21 ATK (1x AoB item + Firefist) = 350.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 285
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 242.5
2c. ((46 Weapon Damage * 2) * 242.5) / 100 = 223.1
2d. Add 2h damage table bonus. Total is 37 according to https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1 (this includes the formula 3 + ((60 level - 28) / 3) + ((44 delay - 40) / 3)). 37 + 223.1 = 260.1

https://youtu.be/Py96jk2NflU video link for test.

[Snaggles]

You calculate damage bonus when doing ratio. That’s how you compare weapons of varying ratios when accounting for damage bonus application/second. The Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) is a much worse flat ratio than a Blam Stick (30/40) at .6111 vs .75. But on low AC stuff it’s not horrible.

11x2+11 (damage bonus)/18 Delay = 1.8333
30x2+11 (damage bonus) /40 (delay) = 1.775

Calculation above is the same for OH but no damage bonus and you should account record swing ratio. For a 60 ranger the offhand swings exactly .75 times compared to the MH parsed over a 20 minute fight.

2h’s damage bonus is not flat calculated as it changes depending on delay; there are still more and less efficient 2h’s.

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

While it does really matter since there are a finite amount of options, the tstaff is an example where a sub 1/1 ratio weapon can exceed a post 1/1 ratio weapon. Not by much, but by some. Especially if factoring the DD proc.

29/30 (tstaff)
29 (weapon dmg)x2 + 29 (dmg bonus) / 30 (delay) = 2.9 ratio

45/44 (priceless brawl stick)
44 (weapon dmg)x2 + 37 (dmg bonus) / 44 (delay) = 2.886

[Keebz]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) is a much worse flat ratio than a Blam Stick (30/40) at .6111 vs .75. But on low AC stuff it’s not horrible.

I think you meant high AC stuff. For high AC mobs, your hits are at the lower end of their distribution which makes the damage bonus (static) constitute a larger percentage of your overall damage.

Another thing to consider is min hit. Weapons with over 15 damage have a min hit of 2 versus a min hit of 1. There may be other cutoffs as numbers get higher, but I never tried to parse it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you meant high AC stuff. For high AC mobs, your hits are at the lower end of their distribution which makes the damage bonus (static) constitute a larger percentage of your overall damage.

Another thing to consider is min hit. Weapons with over 15 damage have a min hit of 2 versus a min hit of 1. There may be other cutoffs as numbers get higher, but I never tried to parse it.

That's correct, on high AC targets lower delay can be better. This is due to the high AC weighting your dice negatively. The dice will roll lower than average damage numbers, so the flat damage bonus matters more. Swiftblade has good damage for it's low delay, which is why it works nicely on high AC targets.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You calculate damage bonus when doing ratio. That’s how you compare weapons of varying ratios when accounting for damage bonus application/second. The Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) is a much worse flat ratio than a Blam Stick (30/40) at .6111 vs .75. But on low AC stuff it’s not horrible.

Here is why it's not quite right to simply add the damage bonus to the weapon damage when calculating ratio. The weapon itself is generating damage in a range based on a weighted roll, while the flat damage bonus is always constant.

Let's say you are fighting a mob with a 25 damage weapon. For eases sake we will say max damage is just 25 * 2 = 50, and the minimum damage is 1. We will also say the mob's AC allows you to roll unweighted dice.

The average damage of the weapon would be 25, and you are always getting + 11 as a flat bonus. So your average damage per swing is 36.

If you add 11 to 50 instead, the calculation would say you have 30.5 damage per swing on average, which isn't correct.

In practice a player's max damage is higher than simply weapon Damage x 2. In the calculation I did above, A 46 damage weapon can hit up to 223 before damage bonus. The average of that would be 111.5 + 37 = 148.5 on unweighted dice. If you added the damage bonus first, it would be 260/2 = 130 average damage on unweighted dice.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you meant high AC stuff. For high AC mobs, your hits are at the lower end of their distribution which makes the damage bonus (static) constitute a larger percentage of your overall damage.

Another thing to consider is min hit. Weapons with over 15 damage have a min hit of 2 versus a min hit of 1. There may be other cutoffs as numbers get higher, but I never tried to parse it.

Yea that was just a formatting typo. The SBoZ being significantly better on high ac, moderately better on low AC. Despite the Blam having a better ratio.

Just an extreme way to view the adage of “speed is always better in MH”. It still depends on how the math breaks on ratio vs damage bonus application.


DSM,

The calculation I reference is the standard way to compare weapons in EQ. At least per the community and wiki. It’s not perfect but that’s why people parse. If you are trying to figure out which weapon is an “upgrade” you need a napkin math way to solve the issue because you can’t borrow Tunare’s hair to parse for hours and give it back.

Every weapon I’ve done the math for has made sense over a number of parses. The calculated ratio between the BoF/Swiftwind and Meljeldin is very similar and those two parses have them both at 77dps. It’s not perfect but it’s the closest we have to a proven method. At least that I’m willing to accept without a lot more math to justify a change. If it’s not broke…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yea that was just a formatting typo. The SBoZ being significantly better on high ac, moderately better on low AC. Despite the Blam having a better ratio.

Just an extreme way to view the adage of “speed is always better in MH”. It still depends on how the math breaks on ratio vs damage bonus application.


DSM,

The calculation I reference is the standard way to compare weapons in EQ. At least per the community and wiki. It’s not perfect but that’s why people parse. If you are trying to figure out which weapon is an “upgrade” you need a napkin math way to solve the issue because you can’t borrow Tunare’s hair to parse for hours and give it back.

Every weapon I’ve done the math for has made sense over a number of parses. The calculated ratio between the BoF/Swiftwind and Meljeldin is very similar and those two parses have them both at 77dps. It’s not perfect but it’s the closest we have to a proven method. At least that I’m willing to accept without a lot more math to justify a change. If it’s not broke…

This is very close. Using min damage value of 9 for a level 60 based on some log data for Frostwrath. Not sure what the min damage formula is for lower levels.

MinusFactor
Level 1-50 = 105
Level 51-55 = 80
Level 56-59 = 70
Level 60 = 65

Blam Stick

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * (231 Strength + 21 ATK from 1x AoB and Firefist) - 150) / 3) = 343.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 278
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 239
2c. ((30 Weapon Damage * 2) * 239) / 100 = 143.4 max damage before damage bonus
3. 143.4 + 9 (min damage) / 2 = 76.2. average damage
3a. 76.2 + 11 (damage bonus) = 87.2 damage average * 0.5 miss rate = 43.6
3b. 43.6 / 40 (delay) = 1.09 ratio

SBoZ

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * (231 Strength + 21 ATK from 1x AoB and Firefist) - 150) / 3) = 343.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 278
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 239
2c. ((11 Weapon Damage * 2) * 239) / 100 = 52.58 max damage before damage bonus
3. 52.58 + 9 (min damage) / 2 = 30.79 average damage
3a. 30.79 + 11 (damage bonus) = 41.79 damage average * 0.5 miss rate = 20.895
3b. 20.895 / 18 (delay) = 1.16 ratio

You can see that 21 is almost 22 if you simply added 11 (weapon damage) + 11 (damage bonus) for SBoZ, and 43.6 is close to 41 if you simply added 30 (weapon damage) + 11 (damage bonus). That's why the simplified formula often works, but you can see the values are not quite correct with the simpler calculation, which could give you the wrong answer when the weapons are close.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

11x2+11 (damage bonus)/18 Delay = 1.8333
30x2+11 (damage bonus) /40 (delay) = 1.775

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Blam Stick
44.125 / 40 (delay) = 1.1 ratio

SBoZ
21.0875 / 18 (delay) = 1.17 ratio

Your calculations are different than Snaggles, and I understand why, but both calculations come up with the same result: SBoZ is the better weapon. Is there any example where your calculations come up with a different result than Snaggles' would?