Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just checking back to see how petty and unhinged this has become.

Agreed. The lengths people will go to just to troll others over simple game mechanics is very sad.

They are hurting the community. Providing bad information to players because you want to troll other posters is destructive.

In Troxx's latest math post that he thought was correct: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430

He has the Iksar Shaman Regenerate 1441 health over 188 seconds, which isn't possible. A level 58 Shaman is regenerating 16 sitting + 15 regrowth = 31 HP per tick assuming perfect sits on tick. 188 seconds is 31 ticks. 31 x 31 = 961 HP. He gave the DoT Shaman like 500 more HP than he should have.

I made some mistakes in my math calculations as well, which I have owned up to and fixed https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=445 . Troxx has yet to do the same.

[Keebz]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let’s agree that:
...
-both shamans have racial regen/fungi and regrowth

So they should have racial regen + fungi + regrowth. Got it.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He has the Iksar Shaman Regenerate 1441 health over 188 seconds, which isn't possible. A level 58 Shaman is regenerating 16 sitting + 15 regrowth = 31 HP per tick assuming perfect sits on tick. 188 seconds is 31 ticks. 31 x 31 = 961 HP.

You're missing fungi regen.

46 * 31 = 1426 which is oddly 15 less than 1441 but pretty close.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're missing fungi regen.
46 * 31 = 1426 which is oddly 15 less than 1441 but pretty close.

Ah he actually used Fungi Tunic in his example. I wasn't using it in any of my examples. If he want's to include it, I'll redo my calculations. I also noticed a few flaws in my math from my previous post. I'll fix them here:

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour

Total HP Spent: 594
Total Mana Spent: 159
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 48 seconds to recover 168 mana and 288 HP.

180 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 663
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 663 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of pet HP while pulling. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing canni dance ticks during combat.

The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar who is root rotting has a significant increase in the chances of a root break, which means spending HP/Mana to re-root. The Iksar also has increased chance of fizzling. This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The reduction in RnG coupled with the JBB Shaman's ability to still regenerate quickly out of combat while pulling allows for a more consistent play style that is less likely to get interrupted by bad luck. You end up saving quite a bit of mana from not getting spell resists on your 300+ mana DoTs and re-rooting mobs.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

....

Main thing I gather, with the specific purpose of this thread in mind, is the Iksar or other non-Jaundice shaman can down the targets at approximately the same rate, just have to do a bit more work to do so. Bracer does make a good case for itself as a labor-saving device. The estimated 8-10 sec or so difference is close enough as to be not particularly significant. For the purpose of the casual reader that does count, I think, as broadly equivalent capability and should reassure the iksar player that he isn't seriously harming himself in not having that item.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Main thing I gather, with the specific purpose of this thread in mind, is the Iksar or other non-Jaundice shaman can down the targets at approximately the same rate, just have to do a bit more work to do so. Bracer does make a good case for itself as a labor-saving device. The estimated 8-10 sec or so difference is close enough as to be not particularly significant. For the purpose of the casual reader that does count, I think, as broadly equivalent capability and should reassure the iksar player that he isn't seriously harming himself in not having that item.

For the purposes of this thread we did indeed answer OP's question on page 1:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As Toxigen said, JBB isn't necessary for any endgame content.

I still use mine at 60, JBB isn't just for powerleveling. Saving spell slots is always very nice on a Shaman.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - An example of using JBB on Cliff Golems. I did 5000ish damage with JBB, which is 1/6th of it's life.

The mathematical details of leveling with JBB https://project1999.com/forums/showp...&postcount=457 are presented to counter Troxx's incorrect idea that JBB is only good to level with from 45-51. Using PoM rat maze as an example shows JBB still has the edge over root rotting when it comes to leveling from 55-60, even when comparing an Ogre to an Iksar. JBB would be even faster on a Troll compared to an Iksar, since they get regen and JBB. Barbarian would be faster too with the XP bonus they get and JBB.

With that said, nobody should worry. If you pick a race that levels slower because you like the way they look, you are already satisfied with the tradeoff. All races can level to 60 just fine.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

stuff stuff stuff stuff
Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
stuff stuff stuff stuff

Total HP Spent: 594
Total Mana Spent: 159
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 48 seconds to recover 168 mana and 288 HP.

180 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)

Stuff stuff stuff stuff

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 663
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 663 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained.
stuff stuff stuff stuff

Your analysis of the math that you did remains deeply flawed. The actual calculations (ie 132 seconds = 1320 damage at 10dps) seems to be just fine. Hear me out.
-We'll take your numbers at face value (well most of them)
-I won't dispute your DPS claims from deciding to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Blight,...of_the_Scourge instead of a 1 hander and shield.
-We will ignore the flaws in your math regarding the expectations in the dps contribution from a dot proc on a weapon that bcbrown addressed here https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=446
-I won't even point out that your decision to NOT use a shield WILL mean that you WILL take more damage on average, over time, than if you had used a shield.
-I also will ignore the fact that when you attack a mob from the front you WILL take ripostes, which will cause you to take more damage and not clicking attack at all.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on all those actual things that your post glosses over. Let us simply look at the numbers you posted.

Note: I cut out large parts of your post and replaced with "stuff stuff stuff stuff" simply to save space. Let us simply look at your numbers.

Ogre fight:
Time: 132 seconds
Net health loss: 594
Net mana loss: irrelevant because it will take you longer to recover the health than the mana you spent.

At the end of the fight this Ogre shaman was down Five Hundred and Ninety-Four health. An Ogre shaman sitting on their keister with regrowth and a fungi tunic will regenerate exactly 36 health per tick. It will take 16.5 ticks of sitting down to recover 594 health. That's 99 seconds - not 48 seconds. If you stand up after 48 seconds of sitting down - you healed 288hp, not 594.

You are still missing more than half the health you lost over the course of the fight.

180 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling

The "last bit of HP" you are glossing over is actually more than half of the hp you lost. If you were to pull immediately at the end of each 180 second fight, you'd be losing close to 300 health per fight ... fight after fight. Remember, we're soloing here so this doesn't mean that you are at 100% health and 100% mana at the start of every fight and refusing to pull until you are again 100/100. You could start each fight at 90% ... or 80% health/mana. We're xp grinding here, not soloing WW dragons.

How long is the actual recover time to the "break even" point?
Ogre with JBB = 232 seconds.
Troll/iksar letting pet tank = 188 seconds (won't dispute that - same exact numbers I found)

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430

Already did the dotting shaman math for you. Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430 after the next mob is pulled/prepped with a portion of the surplus mana from the previous fight. Again, the pet is also regenning 45 health per tick and the shaman will be taking a few swings as first dot is landing and the first root cast is firing.

--------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

I will say that I am proud of you. You have actually wiggled on this. Your conclusions have already shifted quite largely - and this is highly unusual for you. Perhaps, unlike most DSM threads, progress has been made?

Your first analysis showed a big gap between the two favoring the JBB. I showed you math that proved you wrong. You adopted a different and more practical approach (ie the one I used to prove you wrong) while adding in the wild card of using the 2h proc weapon.

The result?

Well geeze-luhwheeze that massive gap you used to show ain't there anymore and now it's only 180 seconds vs 188 seconds ... never mind the fact that you're still glossing over the fact your JBB shaman is 300 health behind where he started ... ya know ... cause "I'll just regenerate that last bit of HP while pulling"

When you lost 594hp and only regenerated 288hp while meditating your mana, you're still 306hp in the hole. 306hp is technically a majority of the health (ie more than half) you lost in the fight, not just a "last little bit of HP".

At 60 you may look at 306hp and say "well that's not much" .. but dig deep and remember those days before torpor. Thats a substantial amount of hp to lose per mob when grinding xp. Even counting the hp you do regen back while getting the next mob in camp ... 8-10 mobs into your xp grinding session you are going to find yourself at a state of:

Mana = neutral
HP = almost completely out

Sooner or later you will have to take either one really long ass break ... or you will have to admit that the actual fight to fight recovery time is a full 51 seconds longer than you care to admit currently.

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[Infectious]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your analysis of the math that you did remains deeply flawed. The actual calculations (ie 132 seconds = 1320 damage at 10dps) seems to be just fine. Hear me out.
-We'll take your numbers at face value (well most of them)
-I won't dispute your DPS claims from deciding to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Blight,...of_the_Scourge instead of a 1 hander and shield.
-We will ignore the flaws in your math regarding the expectations in the dps contribution from a dot proc on a weapon that bcbrown addressed here https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=446
-I won't even point out that your decision to NOT use a shield WILL mean that you WILL take more damage on average, over time, than if you had used a shield.
-I also will ignore the fact that when you attack a mob from the front you WILL take ripostes, which will cause you to take more damage and not clicking attack at all.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on all those actual things that your post glosses over. Let us simply look at the numbers you posted.

Note: I cut out large parts of your post and replaced with "stuff stuff stuff stuff" simply to save space. Let us simply look at your numbers.

Ogre fight:
Time: 132 seconds
Net health loss: 594
Net mana loss: irrelevant because it will take you longer to recover the health than the mana you spent.

At the end of the fight this Ogre shaman was down Five Hundred and Ninety-Four health. An Ogre shaman sitting on their keister with regrowth and a fungi tunic will regenerate exactly 36 health per tick. It will take 16.5 ticks of sitting down to recover 594 health. That's 99 seconds - not 48 seconds. If you stand up after 48 seconds of sitting down - you healed 288hp, not 594.

You are still missing more than half the health you lost over the course of the fight.



The "last bit of HP" you are glossing over is actually more than half of the hp you lost. If you were to pull immediately at the end of each 180 second fight, you'd be losing close to 300 health per fight ... fight after fight. Remember, we're soloing here so this doesn't mean that you are at 100% health and 100% mana at the start of every fight and refusing to pull until you are again 100/100. You could start each fight at 90% ... or 80% health/mana. We're xp grinding here, not soloing WW dragons.

How long is the actual recover time to the "break even" point?
Ogre with JBB = 232 seconds.
Troll/iksar letting pet tank = 188 seconds (won't dispute that - same exact numbers I found)

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430

Already did the dotting shaman math for you. Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430 after the next mob is pulled/prepped with a portion of the surplus mana from the previous fight. Again, the pet is also regenning 45 health per tick and the shaman will be taking a few swings as first dot is landing and the first root cast is firing.

--------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

I will say that I am proud of you. You have actually wiggled on this. Your conclusions have already shifted quite largely - and this is highly unusual for you. Perhaps, unlike most DSM threads, progress has been made?

Your first analysis showed a big gap between the two favoring the JBB. I showed you math that proved you wrong. You adopted a different and more practical approach (ie the one I used to prove you wrong) while adding in the wild card of using the 2h proc weapon.

The result?

Well geeze-luhwheeze that massive gap you used to show ain't there anymore and now it's only 180 seconds vs 188 seconds ... never mind the fact that you're still glossing over the fact your JBB shaman is 300 health behind where he started ... ya know ... cause "I'll just regenerate that last bit of HP while pulling"

When you lost 594hp and only regenerated 288hp while meditating your mana, you're still 306hp in the hole. 306hp is technically a majority of the health (ie more than half) you lost in the fight, not just a "last little bit of HP".

At 60 you may look at 306hp and say "well that's not much" .. but dig deep and remember those days before torpor. Thats a substantial amount of hp to lose per mob when grinding xp. Even counting the hp you do regen back while getting the next mob in camp ... 8-10 mobs into your xp grinding session you are going to find yourself at a state of:

Mana = neutral
HP = almost completely out

Sooner or later you will have to take either one really long ass break ... or you will have to admit that the actual fight to fight recovery time is a full 51 seconds longer than you care to admit currently.

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I guess this means DSM is the troll and uses napkin math to convince himself he is right.