SK Race Choice

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The cop out is saying it doesn't matter at the end of the day why they are trolling you. That absolves you from any need to think critically about why they might be trolling you.

Incorrect. You are falsely assuming that getting trolled means it is because you are doing something wrong. Bullies do not need a reason to target someone. It is clear you are insinuating I am doing something wrong, while you still haven't provided any evidence.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Obviously no one does. But I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the average person would block someone instead of subjecting themselves to people who either do nothing but troll or troll a very high percentage of the time. People don't usually subject themselves or consume trolling/bullying content if they can make it disappear.

This is yet again, just your opinion. I do not use the block button.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think it's a stretch for bullies to come together to bully people. That obviously happens. I think it's a stretch to think that there is no reason other than "bullies gonna bully and troll" for why you are so disproportionally targeted amongst everyone else on these forums. Including but not limited to people who post more often than you. I don't think it's just because they disagree with you because that would lead to the conclusion that everyone else they don't troll (ie: the vast vast majority of other people that post on the forums) they agree with everything they post.

You can have disinterest or disregard for that question but I personally think it's the most important question to answer regarding the topic of why you seem to attract trolls/bullies everywhere you go on the forums.

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is I have been targeted by bullies and trolls. This is the internet. You yourself are an admitted troll, and are targeting me specifically with your signature lol.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My perception is that your opinions seem to be in the minority and that there are usually very few people who agree with you when I read a thread you're actively posting in. Obviously that doesn't mean that you're wrong, but it does show a pattern that can lead to a reasonable conclusion. You will undoubtedly disagree with me but I feel like you constantly find yourself in the minority opinion with a small minority of people supporting your ideas because you too narrowly focus most of your debates and don't take a proper wider view of the debate into account.

In this thread alone:

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lack of BE clickies is significant. You’re saving at minimum 120 mana a split. I fear kited like crazy in dungeons. Slam goes a long way in addition to short term fear in close quarters. DSM has provided multiple videos of zones like hs and seb where you can fear kite.

Go troll with all into INT for a solo crawler. If you’re gonna go BIS, then maybe erudite/DE for best mana pool but by the sounds of it troll is the winner for you.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If I was gonna make a SK I’d go troll. Best all around option imo between start stats, regen, kunark clickies and slam.

Two people who often disagree with me, agree with me. Your perception is simply flawed. Just because there are a few threads where a lot of people disagree with me, it doesn't mean that is the general case, or that I am wrong. I am fine with being wrong too! I have admitted to it plenty of times in the past.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Two people who often disagree with me, agree with me. Your perception is simply flawed. Just because there are a few threads where a lot of people disagree with me, it doesn't mean that is the general case, or that I am wrong. I am fine with being wrong too! I have admitted to it plenty of times in the past.

Precisely! I don’t disagree just because you are you. When you are correct, I agree with you. In this instance I say troll is best for SK. (For the same reason it’s best as shaman)

But When you say BS like:

regen isn’t worthwhile on a 60 shaman with torpor …

or when you say shaman dps in a high dps group with 2 charm pets is as good as a mage …

or when you say 4.3% more dps isn’t “worth it” compared to minuscule extra total mana pool on a casual sk….

Nah man in those instances you are wrong.

I don’t agree or disagree with the person. I disagree or agree with what is being said. Unfortunately you are wrong in these discussions more often than not. What brings you ire, however, is the stupid way you go about being wrong.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact that mobs like WW Dragons can produce damage spikes via multiple high rolled double attacks seems to further support the case for regen. 42/tick makes torpor do 342/tick. This just made it 14% better and there is a chance it could save your life depending on the damage spike. Again though, I can't prove this, so I won't try it argue it will save your life. But it always working for you while Torpor isn't always, or when you have to cast canni and can't torpor, it is still working for you. Torpor could also get dispelled, while racial regen + fungi cannot, and regrowth can be instantly refreshed with the fungi staff.

As far as the APM advantage by stacking regen, it is hard to calculate this exactly, but I can throw out some numbers.

Say you're in a sustained dungeon crawl group and have slowed 4 mobs. This costs you 1000 mana(250 turgur * 4). For the sake of this discussion let's say Torpor heals 1350 health, because we don't know on average how often you will get the 5th tick. In order to recover 1000 mana, you would need to cast canni 4 12.20 times(1000 / 82 = 12.20). This equates to 1,806 damage taken. Torpor heals for 1350 on average, but it does have an opportunity cost. You need to canni 3 times to make up the mana cost of Torpor. In the process you would take 444 damage also. So in the end, Torpor on average nets you about 906 hp when you factor in it's opportunity cost(cost of mana & canni damage(1350 - 444) = 906. In order to make up the 1,806 health cost from the 12.20 canni's initially, you would need to cast Torpor twice and canni 6 times, to get roughly 1812 hp back. So that's 8 actions. This would also take about 35 seconds(30 seconds + 5 second buffer assuming you have a few fizzles and that you aren't hitting your global reset timers perfectly). Let's assume in an extended session you are dropping a slow around once a minute. so that is 8 actions to make up for 4 slows once a minute resulting in a total of 2 APM saved. That value add of that APM savings can vary based on how many actions you are doing per minute, so I'm not going to come to a conclusion about how much % you would save in APM. It could be a 20% savings, 10%, 5%, etc. You also get back roughly 8.75 seconds/minute to do other things with those 8 actions, and 42/tick in regen can nearly offset the 1 slow per minute for free.

So in conclusion I am hypothesizing that 42/tick in regen(racial + fungi + regrowth) at 60 can save around 2 APM, while also freeing up about 8.75 seconds/minute to do other things with that time(or nothing if you wish). I am not going to sit here and say these numbers are 100% accurate, but I think it gives a rough estimate of the potential APM savings of adding in as much regen as you can. It also makes Torpor 14% stronger which can potentially help with damage spikes to save your life.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll Reply to Crede when I get some more time. Thanks again for replying in a cordial manner! I really do appreciate it.

Let’s get back to this discussion, it seems you have plenty of time to engage with others. Looking at my numbers I realized I wasn’t factoring in the APM of a gcd. Going back to my above example, 4 slows costs you 1000 mana. This is approximately 2 torpor’s and 6 cannis. That would be 14 actions((torpor+gcd+canni+gcd+canni+gcd+canni) * 2 = 14). This results in about 4 APM based on my earlier post. If you’re taking things somewhat easily which lets say is about 20 APM, that could potentially be a 20% APM reduction. To me that is significant. I don’t know what the average shaman APM is though as there’s likely too much variance there, but I do think there’s value added here. And as previously mentioned, regen also can make torpor 14% better. While you may not feel this is personally worth it, I do think people should realize these numbers and let them decide accordingly.

Such thing can vary based on the type of engagement you are using, but I think where you’ll see the true benefit of regen is in longer situations, which you’ve previously agreed with. Or if you ever find yourself in a bind and have to use FD ring, it can be really nice for that. I don’t think there’s enough evidence that supports neglecting it completely.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let’s get back to this discussion, it seems you have plenty of time to engage with others. Looking at my numbers I realized I wasn’t factoring in the APM of a gcd. Going back to my above example, 4 slows costs you 1000 mana. This is approximately 2 torpor’s and 6 cannis. That would be 14 actions((torpor+gcd+canni+gcd+canni+gcd+canni) * 2 = 14). This results in about 4 APM based on my earlier post. If you’re taking things somewhat easily which lets say is about 20 APM, that could potentially be a 20% APM reduction. To me that is significant. I don’t know what the average shaman APM is though as there’s likely too much variance there, but I do think there’s value added here. And as previously mentioned, regen also can make torpor 14% better. While you may not feel this is personally worth it, I do think people should realize these numbers and let them decide accordingly.

Such thing can vary based on the type of engagement you are using, but I think where you’ll see the true benefit of regen is in longer situations, which you’ve previously agreed with. Or if you ever find yourself in a bind and have to use FD ring, it can be really nice for that. I don’t think there’s enough evidence that supports neglecting it completely.

I did not forget about you. I simply want to look over my logs on the Ionat fight to compare it against your ideas. I do not have access to my logs right now. That is why I was responding to others. Apologies.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I did not forget about you. I simply want to look over my logs on the Ionat fight to compare it against your ideas. I do not have access to my logs right now. That is why I was responding to others. Apologies.

No worries! Thanks for the heads up.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let’s get back to this discussion, it seems you have plenty of time to engage with others. Looking at my numbers I realized I wasn’t factoring in the APM of a gcd. Going back to my above example, 4 slows costs you 1000 mana. This is approximately 2 torpor’s and 6 cannis. That would be 14 actions((torpor+gcd+canni+gcd+canni+gcd+canni) * 2 = 14). This results in about 4 APM based on my earlier post. If you’re taking things somewhat easily which lets say is about 20 APM, that could potentially be a 20% APM reduction. To me that is significant. I don’t know what the average shaman APM is though as there’s likely too much variance there, but I do think there’s value added here. And as previously mentioned, regen also can make torpor 14% better. While you may not feel this is personally worth it, I do think people should realize these numbers and let them decide accordingly.

Such thing can vary based on the type of engagement you are using, but I think where you’ll see the true benefit of regen is in longer situations, which you’ve previously agreed with. Or if you ever find yourself in a bind and have to use FD ring, it can be really nice for that. I don’t think there’s enough evidence that supports neglecting it completely.

TLDR.

Cliff notes:

-hp = mana for shamans
-regen buff = most efficient hp per mana spell
-fungi > Vindi bp by 13hp/tick
-troll innate regen stacks on top
-more hp regen baseline, fewer torpor casts
-fewer torpor casts is less canni 4s needed to regain it and more time spent doing literally anything else. This could be productive things like casting other spells or Quality of Life things like scratching my ass, picking my nose or just spacing out on a busy busy class that has all the shit to do. Buff others, debuff mobs, heal self/others, cast other crap. Playing a shaman is almost as time intensive as playing a bard. Any free time to space out is golden.

For a shaman:
-fungi is the BIS bp item for 99.99% of content
-racial regen does matter
-why the heck wouldn’t you cast regrowth once every 20 mins??

As for me, I gave my fungi to my monk and am using thurg bp on my troll shaman. I did it because I’m poor and lazy and … I agree with DSM that with torpor I can get by just fine. If I had a Vindi bp? Even better. Unlike DSM my troll shaman keeps regrowth up so I win.

What I am not conceding is that fungi isn’t better than Vindi bp. It is. It is flat out better. I’m just too poor and lazy to buy and farm another. The one I have is where it will be needed the most.

Playing a torpor shaman is about the easiest, slack jawed, easy ass class I could play at 60 other than my mage. A shaman with an IQ of 75 can operate at 95% capacity because its just that easy and overpowered.

[Troxx]

Double post

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem with this line of thinking is you are clearly biased against me. It is probably due to people repeating strawmen and lies, which influences how you read my posts. The fact that you think I am "never wrong" simply proves you don't read what I post, and you are making assumptions about me. I have admitted to being wrong plenty of times on these forums, and you can look back into the post history to check.

If you were actually concerned about giving posters advise, you would be talking to the people who clearly troll others in an attempt to shut down the conversation. That is a much stronger indication of arrogance and pride. The fact that I am willing to go out and provide evidence for my claims shows that I am not arrogant enough to assume I am correct, simply because I say so. I back up what I say.

It is quite telling that people only have advise for me, and none of the other posters who are clearly acting worse. If you were being consistent, you wouldn't stop at giving me advise. You would tell Troxx to stop bloating threads with silly gifs when he is being arrogant and assuming he cannot be wrong. You would tell Gloomlord that posting hundreds of off-topic posts simply to "criticize" someone is not productive, and simply bloats the thread.

I'm not scrubbing your 4500+ posts for historical tidbits. I cant recall you posting once with any humility, running one stupid test without an ounce of "I could be wrong here but..." baked in. Nobody here has poisoned my views against you, an ounce of levity in a DSM post would be refreshing though. Hell, it's a video game. You arent trying to convince people against eating Tide pods.

I don't care if people troll. You can either try to shut them down or just offer a counter-point. If people cant tell the difference between a reasoned effort to help and trolling this millennium won't be nice to them. Assuming they dont try to lick a wall outlet before that.

Seriously though, if my posts, tests, and general logic drive the community at large insane they will tell me. I'd probably adjust my approach a bit if that was the case or at least tease back with a bit of humor. I do believe what I post but understand if people don't agree. They didnt sign up for a class and I'm not getting paid to teach.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

By no means am I a professional statistician, but I have worked with plenty. High quality statistical testing requires, at a minimum:

An explicit mental model of the world, with all assumptions stated clearly. You need to be able to articulate your understanding of the world before you can know whether your results indicate an improvement of that understanding.

An explicit hypothesis. You need to know what you are looking for in your experiment. Ad-hoc exploratory data gathering can be useful in trying to formulate a hypthothesis, but that exploratory data will not be useful in determining whether a hypothesis is confirmed or rejected.

An experiment design. You need to know ahead of time what data you wish to gather, how to gather it, and when to stop the experiment. An example of a flawed experiment would be trying to show that a certain gear combo causes a certain DPS increase, and then stopping your parse as soon as you show that DPS increase.

Sanity-checking the resulting data to confirm your assumptions have been met. If not, then your understanding of the world is flawed and your data unusable. You need to first run a different experiment to find and fix the flaws in your assumptions.

Run a well-defined, repeatable analysis. You need to know ahead of time what metrics you wish to calculate. You should also do some sort of calculation of statistical confidence, whether frequentist or Bayesian.

Scientific integrity. You need to publish your results whether or not they support your hypothesis. If the results violate some of your assumptions, you cannot rely on the results of any data analysis.

Thank you for this. I never thought something so interesting would be found on page 42 of a SK stat thread [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]




In summary, though, pick the race you want. Level the race you want. Pick the stats you want and be ok with probably regretting something about your class/race/stats at one point. Get good at your class and weed through the BS. Don't afk for DKP's and play the hell out of the game so it inspires people to want to roll the same class. Download Gameparse and check it occasionally to draw some conclusions so you can cut through bias and feelings. Oh and always bring plat to tip for ports...port beggers are losers.

[Jimjam]

Why trolls online are so mean.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s....php?p=3637918

I don’t think we need to discuss this on a starter sk thread. If you want to continue that discussion perhaps do so in the link above.

The only kind of troll relevant to this thread is the slamming, regening false giant!

[Troxx]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=422749


Lol watch DSM inject himself into RnF thread … and nobody listens