student loans are a hit!

[Duik]

Originally Posted by Elizondo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want to get into why criminals are criminals we can do that

Hint: Primarily raised by single mothers

Maybe this is true, as a statistic, but it is disingenuous to conclude "mothers should stay married NO MATTER THE SITUATION to save society from criminals".
These single mothers become single for MANY REASONS.
Arsehole fathers being arseholes cause some.
Cunty women being cunts also cause some.

Spouse death.

Just two people grow the fuck apart.
So, we maybe need to understand the why part of marriage breakdown. Can we agree on that?

What about lesbian parents, technically not single moms, any stats on gay couples making criminals?
I'd love some research on that.
But god, wont someone think of god!#! HashclaimationPoint (PatentPending)

[Ooloo]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe this is true, as a statistic, but it is disingenuous to conclude "mothers should stay married NO MATTER THE SITUATION to save society from criminals".
These single mothers become single for MANY REASONS.
Arsehole fathers being arseholes cause some.
Cunty women being cunts also cause some.

Spouse death.

Just two people grow the fuck apart.
So, we maybe need to understand the why part of marriage breakdown. Can we agree on that?

What about lesbian parents, technically not single moms, any stats on gay couples making criminals?
I'd love some research on that.
But god, wont someone think of god!#! HashclaimationPoint (PatentPending)

Welfare and entitlements that incentivize single motherhood certainly don't help. Black families were far more likely to remain intact *before* the civil rights movement. Which is absolutely NOT an endorsement of jim crow laws, but rather a massive indictment of these programs. They had good intentions, but unfortunately they have drastically incentivized all the social conditions that lead to crime. And no this doesn't just apply to black families. There are far more fatherless white children today than there were in the first half of the 20th century as a result of those same incentives. And then there's modern social attitudes and religiosity but that's a separate issue that's much harder to quantify.

I don't know the stats on same-sex couples and child rearing, but I think it's reasonable to conclude that two fathers or two mothers will lack the inherent value of the opposite sex being present in raising the children. Whatever fathers are good at will be lacking in a lesbian couple's parenting, and whatever mothers are good at will be lacking in a gay couple's parenting.

Which isn't to say same sex couples can't raise good kids, I'm sure they can and do. But not every critique of it has to come from some hateful biggotted place.

[aussenseiter]

Originally Posted by Ooloo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Welfare and entitlements that incentivize single motherhood certainly don't help. Black families were far more likely to remain intact *before* the civil rights movement. Which is absolutely NOT an endorsement of jim crow laws, but rather a massive indictment of these programs. They had good intentions, but unfortunately they have drastically incentivized all the social conditions that lead to crime. And no this doesn't just apply to black families. There are far more fatherless white children today than there were in the first half of the 20th century as a result of those same incentives. And then there's modern social attitudes and religiosity but that's a separate issue that's much harder to quantify.

I don't know the stats on same-sex couples and child rearing, but I think it's reasonable to conclude that two fathers or two mothers will lack the inherent value of the opposite sex being present in raising the children. Whatever fathers are good at will be lacking in a lesbian couple's parenting, and whatever mothers are good at will be lacking in a gay couple's parenting.

Which isn't to say same sex couples can't raise good kids, I'm sure they can and do. But not every critique of it has to come from some hateful biggotted place.

Civil rights or Great Society?

[Ooloo]

Originally Posted by aussenseiter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Civil rights or Great Society?

Well great society, but they occurred almost in tandem

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by Ooloo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Welfare and entitlements that incentivize single motherhood certainly don't help. Black families were far more likely to remain intact *before* the civil rights movement.

This makes sense to me in modern time.

But from Brookings.edu:

“Efforts by social scientists to explain the rise in out-of-wedlock births have so far been unconvincing, though several theories have a wide popular following. One argument that appeals to conservatives is that of Charles Murray, who attributes the increase to overly generous federal welfare benefits. But as David Ellwood and Lawrence Summers have shown, welfare benefits could not have played a major role in the rise of out-of-wedlock births because benefits rose sharply in the 1960s and then fell in the 1970s and 1980s, when out-of-wedlock births rose most. A study by Robert Moffitt in 1992 also found that welfare benefits can account for only a small fraction of the rise in the out-of-wedlock birth ratio”

[Ooloo]

Originally Posted by unsunghero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This makes sense to me in modern time.

But from Brookings.edu:

“Efforts by social scientists to explain the rise in out-of-wedlock births have so far been unconvincing, though several theories have a wide popular following. One argument that appeals to conservatives is that of Charles Murray, who attributes the increase to overly generous federal welfare benefits. But as David Ellwood and Lawrence Summers have shown, welfare benefits could not have played a major role in the rise of out-of-wedlock births because benefits rose sharply in the 1960s and then fell in the 1970s and 1980s, when out-of-wedlock births rose most. A study by Robert Moffitt in 1992 also found that welfare benefits can account for only a small fraction of the rise in the out-of-wedlock birth ratio”

Well sure, there might have been a delayed effect. It's not like as soon as those policies are enacted people start getting divorced immediately.

I agree it's probably not the primary factor, but it's certainly a measurable factor. Welfare certainly doesn't encourage women to *stay* married. I think social attitudes and norms around marriage are much more responsible, but they're also much harder to quantify because you basically have to just poll people, whereas the relationship between divorce and welfare disbursement is easily measurable in an excel file.

Also out-of-wedlock births and children being raised by a single mother aren't the same thing. There were lots of out-of-wedlock births in the 1930s, and people would usually have shotgun weddings to raise the child. That's a different issue than divorce\estrangement rates.

[Landroval]

Single motherhood is/was a social experiment, for the most part. Prior to the proliferation of the welfare state, single motherhood was a decision reserved for only the most volatile marriages. I wouldn't say that this is the biggest contributor to the trend, however.
Rather, the phenomenon is largely the result of a culture that glorifies and promotes alcoholism, premarital promiscuity, and Club Life as hallmarks of personal success, with children being born out of wedlock entirely cobstituting a much larger majority of single motherhood situations, than "failed marriages" do.

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by Landroval [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Single motherhood is/was a social experiment, for the most part. Prior to the proliferation of the welfare state, single motherhood was a decision reserved for only the most volatile marriages. I wouldn't say that this is the biggest contributor to the trend, however.
Rather, the phenomenon is largely the result of a culture that glorifies and promotes alcoholism, premarital promiscuity, and Club Life as hallmarks of personal success, with children being born out of wedlock entirely cobstituting a much larger majority of single motherhood situations, than "failed marriages" do.

I’d say there may be a cultural priorities issue as well, especially when we are considering the importance of getting an education is placed on children

This isn’t like Japan where it’s so culturally important kids are offing themselves when they fail