Ogre is a Noob Trap

[greatdane]

Originally Posted by magnetaress [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ppl who are PRO ogre are so die hard ogre it borders on a personality disorder.

People keep saying shit like this, yet all of these discussions stem from someone going "ogre actually sucks, you guys are retarded for thinking it's good!" Nobody is making threads titled 'actually ogre is superior to all and anyone who isn't playing an ogre is dumb!' However, people routinely find the need to make threads talking about how overrated ogres are. The discussions always start there, not from the pro-ogre side.

It's the anti-ogre brigade that has an unhealthy obsession with cramming their view down everyone's throats. The "pro-ogre" players just point out how demonstrably incorrect it is that ogres suck, and are subsequently labeled fanatics by irrational people like you. Of the two "factions," for lack of a better term, the pro-ogre ones are by far the more level-headed and sensible. The anti-ogre crowd are the ones who are hysterically hostile.

Anti-ogre people: "ogres SUCK and you're literally idiots if you can't see it."

Pro-ogre people: "that's not true, ogres are quite good."

You: "PRO-OGRE PEOPLE HAVE A PERSONALITY DISORDER! LOOK HOW FANATICALLY OBSESSED THEY ARE!!!"

Can't you see how utterly absurd your statement is? It's the literal exact opposite of the truth. Like it isn't possible to be any more wrong than you are.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can't you see how utterly absurd your statement is? It's the literal exact opposite of the truth. Like it isn't possible to be any more wrong than you are.

Why discuss with rudimentary math when you can sling ad hominems? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] jk . I feel your pain.

I think people who say “___ is everything” or “_____ doesn’t matter at all” are by definition hyperbolically ridiculous. I bought into the “with velious all your stats will cap so it doesn’t matter” for years. It’s not true unless you are an extreme raider but is the counterpoint to the contrary statement we hear more frequently. At least the exaggeration comes from a more grounded place.

There is some measurable benefit but to what degree? Will it save a raid, a group, or even your own life when soloing? The last might be the most true for lack of other rounding teammates…that said I’ve been just as happy to have giant race slam to interupt as frustrated from a death due to getting stuck in zone geometry.

The more casual you are the more racial stats will matter so far as squeezing that performance balloon in one direction or the other. Making good gear and gameplay decisions is far more important as is your level. 400 extra extra hps is a big deal but won’t make up for bad tanking or bad healing.

Every SK with comparable gear and skill have the same aggro generation, solo ability, etc. Maybe a bit of benefit to more mana if you are using the whole tank of gas down to the vapors.

Small warriors can easily get close to 6k hps with minimal raiding. Fatties have it easier. On extreme levels all this goes away quickly. Not even the edge lords favor on tank race over another on the toughest targets in the game unless it’s like Tunare where broad shoulders actually help.

TLDR, is any race pick a “trap”? No, that’s stupid. It’s also not a boon that will make up for a bad player. Team Ogre is as annoying as Team No-Ogre because it’s usually delivered with the grace and context of a bumper sticker or baseball cap. From my own experience most the ogre ravers are fairly new or naive players…they just don’t have the context or would rather posture on a mouse click.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR, is any race pick a “trap”? No, that’s stupid. It’s also not a boon that will make up for a bad player. Team Ogre is as annoying as Team No-Ogre because it’s usually delivered with the grace and context of a bumper sticker or baseball cap. From my own experience most the ogre ravers are fairly new or naive players…they just don’t have the context or would rather posture on a mouse click.

I am curious which "ogre ravers" you are referring to. I agree with GreatDane, I haven't seen people on these forums make posts with headlines such as "if you aren't an Ogre, stop playing".

People who are anti-Ogre generally say things that aren't true, so people correct them.

As has been said many times, no race is unplayable in the game. Just give people the facts (more stats = better, some racials are better than others), and let them decide how they want to play.

I really don't understand why people have such a hard time with this on these forums.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am curious which "ogre ravers" you are referring to. I agree with GreatDane, I haven't seen people on these forums make posts with headlines such as "if you aren't an Ogre, stop playing".

People who are anti-Ogre generally say things that aren't true, so people correct them.

As has been said many times, no race is unplayable in the game. Just give people the facts (more stats = better, some racials are better than others), and let them decide how they want to play.

I really don't understand why people have such a hard time with this on these forums.

I don’t find your angle particularly researched or unique (sorry…that wasn’t aimed at you, it’s a bumper sticker we hear a lot from both sides). I’ve played this game for about 20 years and the majority of my posts aren’t in support of any one thing.

I’ve had ogres, trolls, elves, littles. I don’t care frankly. I put together a test magelo to show some objective data comparing giant races to small ones with moderate tanking gear and it favored large races. I still posted it because again, I’m not caught in a sunken cost fallacy. I find results interesting, not personally attacking.

As for why people have such “trouble with topics like this on the forum” maybe you should find a different proxy to argue that point. Pot, kettle, and all that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don’t find your angle particularly researched or unique (sorry…that wasn’t aimed at you, it’s a bumper sticker we hear a lot from both sides). I’ve played this game for about 20 years and the majority of my posts aren’t in support of any one thing.

I’ve had ogres, trolls, elves, littles. I don’t care frankly. I put together a test magelo to show some objective data comparing giant races to small ones with moderate tanking gear and it favored large races. I still posted it because again, I’m not caught in a sunken cost fallacy. I find results interesting, not personally attacking.

As for why people have such “trouble with topics like this on the forum” maybe you should find a different proxy to argue that point. Pot, kettle, and all that.

I have probably done more research on the topic than most people on these forums (for P99 specifically, other Everquest servers are irrelevant). I don't find it personally attacking either, but a lot of people do resort to personal attacks (not saying you are doing that).

The "bumper stickers" mostly come from the people who argue without data. Not saying you are doing that, but that has been my experience on these forums. Someone will make a "factual" argument, but never actually back it up.

There is no "sunken cost" fallacy going on here. Some people like fashion, some people like min/max, some people don't care. Give people the facts and let them decide how they want to play. I just find it interesting that P99 specifically has people who want to obscure the data (not saying you are doing that) for some reason.

[Snaggles]

Very sorry about that. I overreacted. Still heavily jet lagged [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed, it’s just math either way. Much of it is easily measurable with the green numbers. In many cases an evil race will be beneficial over a good race, especially if casually geared (most people are). They got xp penalties for a reason. As for if unjustifiably so, that’s a debate for another day.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Very sorry about that. I overreacted. Still heavily jet lagged [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed, it’s just math either way. Much of it is easily measurable with the green numbers. In many cases an evil race will be beneficial over a good race, especially if casually geared (most people are). They got xp penalties for a reason. As for if unjustifiably so, that’s a debate for another day.

No worries at all, I didn't take offense. I always hate jet lag.