What class will you roll first on a fresh server?

[Hailto]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For me, it depends 100% on whether Enchanters get more classic or not. I've been here a long time, and played many alts, but I've never gotten a chanter past 20. I really want to try the class out seriously ... but I want to try the version that I remember back in 1999, not the unclassic "solo god" P99 version.

It is my strongest hope that Nilbog will bring them more in line with 1999 EverQuest version in time for Green 2.0 ... but if he doesn't, it will feel like cheating to play the class, so instead I'll maybe do a Necromancer, or [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] maybe even a melee.

I always just assumed most of what makes Enchanters so good on P99 is just that the game has been out for 20+ years and it's now a solved game and back in the day people didn't understand how to get the most out of the class. Is that not the case?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Hailto [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I always just assumed most of what makes Enchanters so good on P99 is just that the game has been out for 20+ years and it's now a solved game and back in the day people didn't understand how to get the most out of the class. Is that not the case?

There have been bug reports about various issues with chanters, but the most recent one I can think of is for channeling.

One of the classic researchers (I'm blanking on who, sorry!) did research showing that channeling is too easy here ... which of course makes charming easier, because if you can just channel through a re-charm, there's less risk to charming.

But again, there have been other tickets too. For me, it's not about getting any one pet issue fixed, it's about ... if you go back through classic sources, and read what people said about Shaman, or Druids, or any other class, it's basically the same as how they are here.

Of course, there's some differences due to player knowledge and better internet connections, but again if you read what people said about Warriors or Necros, or any class other than Enchanter, it's basically the same as the P99 version. Enchanters are anomalous here: they're not like they were back then, and I want to play that Enchanter.

[TripSin]

Originally Posted by Hailto [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I always just assumed most of what makes Enchanters so good on P99 is just that the game has been out for 20+ years and it's now a solved game and back in the day people didn't understand how to get the most out of the class. Is that not the case?

Loramin is just obsessed with some made-up version of enchanter he has in his head and has been crying about it for years, apparently.

I was there in 1999. I only played Enchanter on live and I played it for years. Most of the things that make Enchanter so much stronger in P99 compared to back in the day have little to nothing to do with different code. It's like you said, all the accumulated knowledge, and it's also things like much faster pings to the server, it's GINA audio and text alerts, and etc. Even if I were to try to solo charm just without GINA it is a night and day difference. Back on live, you couldn't react nearly as fast as you can now because of the much higher connection latency. That made trying to charm back then much more deadly. I didn't know about JBoots or GGRs back in live and yet I still managed to charm solo back then. Yet nearly every last enchanter on P99 will have those two items if they can afford it and will have the CHA as maxed as they can.

He says in his post here that you can charm through a mob beating on you because the coding for spell interruption is wrong on P99 - this just shows he doesn't know what he's talking about. No enchanter worth anything is going to be sitting there trying to cast charm on a mob hitting them. You control them first with either a fast-casting pbaoe stun, mez, or root. At high level you'll only even live through like 2 rounds of combat anyways, maybe a few more if you've got you're rune up and full.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by TripSin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loramin is just obsessed with some made-up version of enchanter he has in his head and has been crying about it for years, apparently.

I was there in 1999. I only played Enchanter on live and I played it for years. Most of the things that make Enchanter so much stronger in P99 compared to back in the day have little to nothing to do with different code. It's like you said, all the accumulated knowledge, and it's also things like much faster pings to the server, it's GINA audio and text alerts, and etc. Even if I were to try to solo charm just without GINA it is a night and day difference. Back on live, you couldn't react nearly as fast as you can now because of the much higher connection latency. That made trying to charm back then much more deadly. I didn't know about JBoots or GGRs back in live and yet I still managed to charm solo back then. Yet nearly every last enchanter on P99 will have those two items if they can afford it and will have the CHA as maxed as they can.

He says in his post here that you can charm through a mob beating on you because the coding for spell interruption is wrong on P99 - this just shows he doesn't know what he's talking about. No enchanter worth anything is going to be sitting there trying to cast charm on a mob hitting them. You control them first with either a fast-casting pbaoe stun, mez, or root. At high level you'll only even live through like 2 rounds of combat anyways, maybe a few more if you've got you're rune up and full.

You can have your memories of Enchanters being solo gods.

I'll go with my memories (and all the reports on classic sources) of Enchanters being a primarily grouping class (who could solo, but it was very risky and dangerous), and ... with any luck ... Nilbog will go with the classic evidence that's already been submitted by the great researchers here.

[Cen]

I haven't really seen the evidence but I've been chalking enchanters up to people just weren't going ape over charisma like today back then and enchanters aren't the only ones effected by modern tech. Bards who swarmed were really rare for the first two years since everyone was coming off dialup still gradually.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Cen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I haven't really seen the evidence but I've been chalking enchanters up to people just weren't going ape over charisma like today back then and enchanters aren't the only ones effected by modern tech.

First off, the default for everyone is to think "yeah, what P99 is doing is classic", because it's what we've been playing ... but people argued strongly that combat bind wounds was classic! It clearly wasn't, so we should be aware of that bias.

Similarly, it's easy to say "well Enchanters are better here because they know about Charisma", but there's actually tons of evidence that Enchanters knew about Charisma back in the day ... it just wasn't clear how much impact it made. Caster's Realm even did "studies" ... and found them inconclusive (November 2000, emphasis added):

Charisma: This affects amount you will be paid for goods by NPC merchants, and how much they will pay you. It also affects the saving throw on certain Bard and Enchanter spells (charms in particular). There is much debate over the true importance of Charisma for enchanters. It seems that the truly defining element which impacts on charm durations, mesmerise resists and other supposedly "charisma" based spells is actually the targets Magic Resistance. Some people claim that it makes a large difference. Studies run at Casters Realm have been inconclusive, so you may choose to say "better safe than sorry" and add some points at creation.

And there are a lot more references on the various sites in https://wiki.project1999.com/Classic_Research#Enchanter that all make it clear Charisma was known to impact charming ... but again, they often say it's unclear, despite testing ... suggesting that the obvious benefits of Charisma here on P99 might be unclassic.

Originally Posted by Cen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bards who swarmed were really rare for the first two years since everyone was coming off dialup still gradually.

Not that rare. I literally played in the Velious era with a real life friend, and I watched him (painfully) learn to swarm. And he was hardly the first: he'd read about the technique online from other Bards, doing it much earlier.

You're absolutely right that internet limits, hardware limits, Gina, etc. matter. No question. But that applies to all classes. Whether you take Bards or any other class, they fundamentally play the same here as they did in classic ... maybe with bigger swarms now, but they're still the same Bards (and the staff even "nerfed" swarms to make them more classic!)

Meanwhile, Enchanter is the only class that fundamentally aren't the same as on live. They went from being a primarily group class, that could solo (dangerously, so most didn't) ... to being a primarily solo class. You can't convince me that's classic.

[eqravenprince]

Class counts will be similar to Green 1.0. Here are the counts when green was still very new https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...JH0/edit#gid=0

[Cen]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't convince me

I liked everything you wrote except that ;D



By the way, what do you think of Shaman's in contrast to classic? It's got a similar notoriety to some extent.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Cen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I liked everything you wrote except that ;D

What I meant was, I played the game back in the day, and I've also read a ton of old comments and guides about on the Wayback machine. It is factually accurate to say:

1. Enchanters were primarily a grouping class back in '99-'01 (and only very rarely charmed in groups)
2. While they certainly did solo charm, it was done with great risk (which led to #1)

You can't convince me otherwise, because that's history. But you could (hypothetically) convince me that the mechanics here are accurate. I don't currently buy it, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Similarly, you won't convince me that it's classic for Bards to swarm 100+ mobs; despite what I wrote about them swarming, they didn't (or at least 99.99% didn't) swarm 100+ back in '99-'01.

Originally Posted by Cen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

By the way, what do you think of Shaman's in contrast to classic? It's got a similar notoriety to some extent.

I'm absolutely in favor of any "nerfs" to make Shaman (or any class) more classic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just don't have the passion to advocate for any because A) personally, having played Loramin both here and on live, I hadn't noticed anything unclassic, and B) I'm kind of over Loramin. I still play him some, but I've already relived my live experience with him.

What I now want is the classic experience of being an Enchanter; thus my advocacy.