JBB, is it really that good?

[ya.dingus]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fake news which questions the validity of your entire post tbh.

That said, i agree FSI is super convenient for when tanking a whole bunch of mobs.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you're tanking a wall of at level mobs, you're dead.

If you're tanking a wall of green mobs, if they're beyond a certain range their bash not only rarely hits, it also doesn't stun.

You guys would know this if you played any race other than ogre, or did your homework on the actual game mechanics.

In short - you can chalk this to another demonstrably false situational statement that ogre players love to regurgitate in an effort to supply a never ending stream of copium for inhalation so that they can tolerate looking at their character thinking sacrificing 90% of their play quality for 5% of a margin is a good trade.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you're tanking a wall of at level mobs, you're dead.

If you're tanking a wall of green mobs, if they're beyond a certain range their bash not only rarely hits, it also doesn't stun.

The thrust of what you say is true, but come on, it doesn't just flip between one state and the other. There is a middle ground of levels where mobs can have a chance to stun you AND you have a reasonable chance of surviving a few of them.

Not relevant to ogres, but you'll occasionally see low level clerics grabbing a bunch of weak xp mobs, to kill them with repeated word of pains. From my observations they have to take steps to mitigate their lack of FSI - they kite the mobs into a ball (which also helps to circumvent the cool down on PBAoEs), let the mobs all get into melee range at the same instant and then after that first wave of attacks/bashes they begin to cast their pbaoe.

Is there scope for JBB shaman to adopt similar tactics? Are ogres better because they don't need to eat the first wave of attacks? IDK. I'm not sure how relevant killing swarms of greens / very low blues with JBB is tbh (since JBB is the context of the discussion).

[skorge]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you're tanking a wall of at level mobs, you're dead.

If you're tanking a wall of green mobs, if they're beyond a certain range their bash not only rarely hits, it also doesn't stun.

You guys would know this if you played any race other than ogre, or did your homework on the actual game mechanics.

In short - you can chalk this to another demonstrably false situational statement that ogre players love to regurgitate in an effort to supply a never ending stream of copium for inhalation so that they can tolerate looking at their character thinking sacrificing 90% of their play quality for 5% of a margin is a good trade.

Homie didnt read my post...I have a 60 ogre, troll and barbarian shaman. I have a 51 ogre shaman on Green now as we speak. I can tell you hands down that the ogre shaman is the EASIEST shaman to play...I can be on the phone, farm mobs with no worry that my epic clickie (or my JBB) wont be interrupted by some green con mob...unlike my barbian shaman who always got interrupted while even farming in Droga! Once you play an ogre you will realize just how annoying and unnecessary that is...

FSI is BIS because it makes playing P99 easier...its lazy mode (well not really if you are fighting higher end mobs lol) basically. Come at me when you have put in thousands of hours on all the races of shaman (I played Iksar back in 2000). If you would have asked me back in 2010 I would have argued for the regen but now after playing Ogre I am owning up to FSI > Regen.

Just to be clear, all races of shaman are equal...you can solo the same stuff regardless of race...im not saying ogre is the best shaman, im saying FSI is the best trait because it gives you an extra level of QoL that the other traits dont match. The regen is really nice while leveling up if you are brand new to the server but then it loses its benefit once you get Torpor...if Torpor didnt exist maybe regen would be better

[ya.dingus]

Originally Posted by skorge [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Blah blah blah, accuses me of not reading his post, doesn't realize he didn't read mine.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist

Doesn't realize that bash doesn't always stun on every hit

Originally Posted by https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide

mobs get their secondary attack every 8 seconds, bash instead instead of kick 75% of the time, hit 50% of the time, and stun 50% of their hits. So if the mob isn't hasted you'll be spending roughly 2 seconds out of 40 (5%) of your time stunned. Depending on how fast your weapons are, that's some 2-3% of your threat and damage (your weapons will be ready as soon as you aren't stunned, so you don't lose all of the time) which isn't gamebreaking but is certainly nice.

Like neither of you get it, I actually posted the source documentation to the original warrior post that had the chances per hit and broke the math down to the 5% margin you avoid being "stunned"

You two literally don't understand the following;

1. Bash does not always stun. It has a chance to stun. It's not guaranteed
2. It also has a less chance of hitting you than a normal hit
3. If a mob is lower than you in level by a decent amount, even if it bashes, it has a reduced chance to stun the lower level the monster is.


I'm literally feeding you guys the source material and you're not reading it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like neither of you get it, I actually posted the source documentation to the original warrior post that had the chances per hit and broke the math down to the 5% margin you avoid being "stunned"

You two literally don't understand the following;

1. Bash does not always stun. It has a chance to stun. It's not guaranteed
2. It also has a less chance of hitting you than a normal hit
3. If a mob is lower than you in level by a decent amount, even if it bashes, it has a reduced chance to stun the lower level the monster is.


I'm literally feeding you guys the source material and you're not reading it.

You simply aren't reading, which is why you think we don't get it, and why you think your evidence is good.

I posted this earlier:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, FSI is only relevant when mobs bash you. Bash has 3 components:
1. Damage
2. Chance to interrupt spell
3. Chance to Stun (100% chance to interrupt spell)

FSI removes the chance to stun. This means you always have a chance to finish casting your spells when you get bashed, you never have to worry about the stun (auto interrupt). This is if you are facing the target. If they hit you from behind, you can still be stunned.

And I showed the source code for EQEMU in the other thread you made in the tank section (which you also didn't read):

 

		bool can_stun = false;
		int stunbash_chance = 0; // bonus
		if (attacker) {
			if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillBash) {
				can_stun = true;
				if (attacker->IsClient())
					stunbash_chance = attacker->spellbonuses.StunBashChance +
					attacker->itembonuses.StunBashChance +
					attacker->aabonuses.StunBashChance;
			}
			else if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillKick &&
				(attacker->GetLevel() > 55 || attacker->IsNPC()) && GetClass() == WARRIOR) {
				can_stun = true;
			}

			bool is_immune_to_frontal_stun = false;

			if (IsBot() || IsClient() || IsMerc()) {
				if (
					IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
					RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
				) {
					is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
				}


				if (
					(
						IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
						RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
					) ||
					GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
				) {
					is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
				}
			} else if (IsNPC()) {
				if (
					RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityClasses) &&
					IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
					RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
				) {
					is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
				}

				if (
					RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityRaces) &&
					(
						(
							IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
							RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
						) ||
						GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
					)
				) {
					is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
				}
			}

			if (
				is_immune_to_frontal_stun &&
				!attacker->BehindMob(this, attacker->GetX(), attacker->GetY())
			) {
				can_stun = false;
			}

			if (GetSpecialAbility(UNSTUNABLE)) {
				can_stun = false;
			}
		}
		if (can_stun) {
			int bashsave_roll = zone->random.Int(0, 100);
			if (bashsave_roll > 98 || bashsave_roll > (55 - stunbash_chance)) {
				// did stun -- roll other resists
				// SE_FrontalStunResist description says any angle now a days
				int stun_resist2 = spellbonuses.FrontalStunResist + itembonuses.FrontalStunResist +
					aabonuses.FrontalStunResist;
				if (zone->random.Int(1, 100) > stun_resist2) {
					// stun resist 2 failed
					// time to check SE_StunResist and mod2 stun resist
					int stun_resist =
						spellbonuses.StunResist + itembonuses.StunResist + aabonuses.StunResist;
					if (zone->random.Int(0, 100) >= stun_resist) {
						// did stun
						// nothing else to check!
						Stun(2000); // straight 2 seconds every time
					}
					else {
						// stun resist passed!
						if (IsClient())
							MessageString(Chat::Stun, SHAKE_OFF_STUN);
					}
				}
				else {
					// stun resist 2 passed!
					if (IsClient())
						MessageString(Chat::Stun, AVOID_STUNNING_BLOW);
				}
			}
			else {
				// main stun failed -- extra interrupt roll
				if (IsCasting() &&
					!EQ::ValueWithin(casting_spell_id, 859, 1023)) // these spells are excluded
																	  // 90% chance >< -- stun immune won't reach this branch though :(
					if (zone->random.Int(0, 9) > 1)
						InterruptSpell();
			}
		}

		if (spell_id != SPELL_UNKNOWN && !iBuffTic) {
			//see if root will break
			if (IsRooted() && !FromDamageShield)  // neotoyko: only spells cancel root
				TryRootFadeByDamage(buffslot, attacker);
		}
		else if (spell_id == SPELL_UNKNOWN)
		{
			//increment chances of interrupting
			if (IsCasting()) { //shouldnt interrupt on regular spell damage
				attacked_count++;
				LogCombat("Melee attack while casting. Attack count [{}]", attacked_count);
			}
		}

I have also shown videos where it shows I would save more HP with FSI preventing a stun than HP regen:

https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=440

https://youtu.be/uEgFcImQ9XU?t=18

You didn't even read https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide correctly. He is saying if a fight lasts 40 seconds and you get stunned for 2 seconds, the 2 seconds of being stunned is 5% of the total 40 seconds. A Warrior only cares about the raw stun time, since that is time they can't swing their weapons. Spell casters lose more time when getting stunned, because you also have to take into account the amount of time it takes to recast a spell. If you get stunned 4 seconds in to casting Malo, you end up wasting a minimum of 6 seconds (2 from stun and 4 from the spell you didn't finish).

If Sakuragi's math is correct:

1. Over 80 seconds a mob would use their secondary attack 10 times.
2. 8/10 of those secondary attacks would be bashes
3. 4/10 of those secondary attacks would hit
4. 2/10 of those bashes would stun

This means 1 stunning bash every 40 seconds, so I assume he thinks the stuns last for 2 seconds. Based on the source code I showed above, that seems correct.

[ya.dingus]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You simply aren't reading, which is why you think we don't get it, and why you think your evidence is good.

I posted this earlier:



And I showed the source code for EQEMU in the other thread you made in the tank section (which you also didn't read):

 

		bool can_stun = false;
		int stunbash_chance = 0; // bonus
		if (attacker) {
			if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillBash) {
				can_stun = true;
				if (attacker->IsClient())
					stunbash_chance = attacker->spellbonuses.StunBashChance +
					attacker->itembonuses.StunBashChance +
					attacker->aabonuses.StunBashChance;
			}
			else if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillKick &&
				(attacker->GetLevel() > 55 || attacker->IsNPC()) && GetClass() == WARRIOR) {
				can_stun = true;
			}

			bool is_immune_to_frontal_stun = false;

			if (IsBot() || IsClient() || IsMerc()) {
				if (
					IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
					RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
				) {
					is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
				}


				if (
					(
						IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
						RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
					) ||
					GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
				) {
					is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
				}
			} else if (IsNPC()) {
				if (
					RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityClasses) &&
					IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
					RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
				) {
					is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
				}

				if (
					RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityRaces) &&
					(
						(
							IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
							RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
						) ||
						GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
					)
				) {
					is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
				}
			}

			if (
				is_immune_to_frontal_stun &&
				!attacker->BehindMob(this, attacker->GetX(), attacker->GetY())
			) {
				can_stun = false;
			}

			if (GetSpecialAbility(UNSTUNABLE)) {
				can_stun = false;
			}
		}
		if (can_stun) {
			int bashsave_roll = zone->random.Int(0, 100);
			if (bashsave_roll > 98 || bashsave_roll > (55 - stunbash_chance)) {
				// did stun -- roll other resists
				// SE_FrontalStunResist description says any angle now a days
				int stun_resist2 = spellbonuses.FrontalStunResist + itembonuses.FrontalStunResist +
					aabonuses.FrontalStunResist;
				if (zone->random.Int(1, 100) > stun_resist2) {
					// stun resist 2 failed
					// time to check SE_StunResist and mod2 stun resist
					int stun_resist =
						spellbonuses.StunResist + itembonuses.StunResist + aabonuses.StunResist;
					if (zone->random.Int(0, 100) >= stun_resist) {
						// did stun
						// nothing else to check!
						Stun(2000); // straight 2 seconds every time
					}
					else {
						// stun resist passed!
						if (IsClient())
							MessageString(Chat::Stun, SHAKE_OFF_STUN);
					}
				}
				else {
					// stun resist 2 passed!
					if (IsClient())
						MessageString(Chat::Stun, AVOID_STUNNING_BLOW);
				}
			}
			else {
				// main stun failed -- extra interrupt roll
				if (IsCasting() &&
					!EQ::ValueWithin(casting_spell_id, 859, 1023)) // these spells are excluded
																	  // 90% chance >< -- stun immune won't reach this branch though :(
					if (zone->random.Int(0, 9) > 1)
						InterruptSpell();
			}
		}

		if (spell_id != SPELL_UNKNOWN && !iBuffTic) {
			//see if root will break
			if (IsRooted() && !FromDamageShield)  // neotoyko: only spells cancel root
				TryRootFadeByDamage(buffslot, attacker);
		}
		else if (spell_id == SPELL_UNKNOWN)
		{
			//increment chances of interrupting
			if (IsCasting()) { //shouldnt interrupt on regular spell damage
				attacked_count++;
				LogCombat("Melee attack while casting. Attack count [{}]", attacked_count);
			}
		}

I have also shown videos where it shows I would save more HP with FSI preventing a stun than HP regen:

https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=440

https://youtu.be/uEgFcImQ9XU?t=18

You didn't even read https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide correctly. He is saying if a fight lasts 40 seconds and you get stunned for 2 seconds, the 2 seconds of being stunned is 5% of the total 40 seconds. A Warrior only cares about the raw stun time, since that is time they can't swing their weapons. Spell casters lose more time when getting stunned, because you also have to take into account the amount of time it takes to recast a spell. If you get stunned 4 seconds in to casting Malo, you end up wasting a minimum of 6 seconds (2 from stun and 4 from the spell you didn't finish).

If Sakuragi's math is correct:

1. Over 80 seconds a mob would use their secondary attack 10 times.
2. 8/10 of those secondary attacks would be bashes
3. 4/10 of those secondary attacks would hit
4. 2/10 of those bashes would stun

This means 1 stunning bash every 40 seconds, so I assume he thinks the stuns last for 2 seconds. Based on the source code I showed above, that seems correct.

So you're saying, it's still 5%

And for that 5% you want me to believe that overcapping on stats, being big all the time, having some of the worse visual icons, is somehow a good trade?

Sorry 5% while being hit, which you only get the maximum amount of value that FSI offers if you're a warrior basically. Anyone else that's not getting hit from the front all the time sees none of the benefit.

I'm going to have to #hardpass. FSI is a noob trap at worst, or a small QOL at best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you're saying, it's still 5%

And for that 5% you want me to believe that overcapping on stats, being big all the time, having some of the worse visual icons, is somehow a good trade?

Sorry 5% while being hit, which you only get the maximum amount of value that FSI offers if you're a warrior basically. Anyone else that's not getting hit from the front all the time sees none of the benefit.

I'm going to have to #hardpass. FSI is a noob trap at worst, or a small QOL at best.

No, it isn't 5% for casters. Did you not read what I just said? If you get bashed while casting Malo 4 seconds in, you are losing 6 seconds in that 40 seconds, not 2 seconds. That is 15% of your time wasted per 40 seconds on average. That is pretty big when you are in the pre-slow phase.

Nobody is forcing you to play an Ogre[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I am not sure why you are so angry about FSI being superior to Regeneration with Torpor. Both are small benefits, we are just determining which one is better. Better doesn't mean leagues ahead. I have provided plenty of evidence to show how useful FSI is with Torpor. Your evidence isn't evidence against FSI.

[ya.dingus]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, it isn't 5% for casters. Did you not read what I just said? If you get bashed while casting Malo 4 seconds in, you are losing 6 seconds in that 40 seconds, not 2 seconds. That is 15% of your time wasted per 40 seconds on average. That is pretty big when you are in the pre-slow phase.

Nobody is forcing you to play an Ogre[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I am not sure why you are so angry about FSI being superior to Regeneration with Torpor. Both are small benefits, we are just determining which one is better. Better doesn't mean leagues ahead. I have provided plenty of evidence to show how useful FSI is with Torpor. Your evidence isn't evidence against FSI.

It's 5% for melee, it's worse for casters.

Here you are trying to change the goal posts to make FSI "better" but it's just a noob trap.

Why dont you adjust your situation to be more accurate:

1. If a mob uses its secondary it may bash.
2. If a mob tries to bash you, it may hit.
3. If it does hit you, it may stun.
4. If it does stun you, you get interrupted.


Or what's more likely to happen as the ogre experience:


1. If a mob uses its secondary it may bash.
2. If a mob tries to bash you, it may hit.
3. If it does hit you, it may stun.
4. If it does stun you, you resist.
5. If you didnt get immediately interrupted you may get pushed
6. If you get pushed, you may get interrupted, but you wont know until the end of your cast
7. you may get your spell off.



It's a n00b trap baby, nooooooob trap. Learn to play better is what I highly recommend.


Like I said, Ogres just living in an atmosphere of copium, they've practically evolved in it to ensure their survivability as everyone realizes FSI is the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals.