JBB, is it really that good?

[ya.dingus]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The regen did nothing that fight. FSI would have helped if I screwed up and got summoned.

On a 20 minute fight I would get 1600 HP as a Troll with standing Regen (+8 HP per tick). That is 1 Torpor if you get a 1500 HP Torpor on server Tick. That would save me a grand total of 30 seconds recovering after the fight. Cliff Golems have a 6 minute respawn, and I can get to full HP/Mana in 3 minutes[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It is 100% useless generally speaking with Torpor.

Hey, whatever you say man. We both know the math agrees with me.

Also standing it's 12 regen, not 8.

Only a person who ignores math thinks regen is useless.

Here's the wiki so you can brush up on your eq knowledge. Might help you change your opinion to the obvious right answer. Or you can keep being wrong, no skin off my nose. I tried.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Troll_R...P_Regeneration

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey, whatever you say man. We both know the math agrees with me.

Also standing it's 12 regen, not 8.

Only a person who ignores math thinks regen is useless.

Here's the wiki so you can brush up on your eq knowledge. Might help you change your opinion to the obvious right answer. Or you can keep being wrong, no skin off my nose. I tried.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Troll_R...P_Regeneration

It's 8 because that is the difference between Ogre Regen and Troll Regen (12-4). You don't count the full 12 because Ogres regenerate too.

The math agrees with me[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The regen is too slow to save you mid fight, and the total HP saved isn't enough to increase my kills per hour. What else do you think Regeneration is doing? If you are camping Cliff Golems, for example, you will be at 100% HP and Mana as both a Troll and an Ogre by the time the respawn timer hits. There is no difference between a 3 minute recovery time and a 3 minute 30 second recovery time when it takes 6 minutes to respawn. You will get the exact same number of kills per hour as an Ogre or a Troll.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's 8 because that is the difference between Ogre Regen and Troll Regen (12-4). You don't count the full 12 because Ogres regenerate too.

The math agrees with me[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The regen is too slow to save you mid fight, and the total HP saved isn't enough to increase my kills per hour. What else do you think Regeneration is doing? If you are camping Cliff Golems, for example, you will be at 100% HP and Mana as both a Troll and an Ogre by the time the respawn timer hits. There is no difference between a 3 minute recovery time and a 3 minute 30 second recovery time when it takes 6 minutes to respawn. You will get the exact same number of kills per hour as an Ogre or a Troll.

I think you underestimate the concept of an APM bucket. Every human has one. There’s only so many actions we can take before we start getting lazy. If a troll/iksar shaman decides they want to sit and not canni the regen advantage goes up to 11. That is no joke. And depending on situation that could be perfectly acceptable. I’ve worn a fungi on so many chars that getting an extra chloro buff of 10hp/tick is a night and day difference. I don’t even notice when fungi is on but I notice when I have chloro. In a game of inches, which is what this is, having to cast less torpor’s per hour(and subsequently having to cast more canni to offset that) should not be taken lightly.

I would agree that FSI is the best trait for a soloing torpor shaman. But to have a constant 8-11 extra hp/tick at level 60 is still a big deal.

At the end of the day it’s ~chloroplast/clicky snare(even if shitty it’s enough to make up inches) vs a ~33% chance to not get stunned. This is precisely why nobody will ever agree on the best shaman race.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you underestimate the concept of an APM bucket. Every human has one. There’s only so many actions we can take before we start getting lazy. If a troll/iksar shaman decides they want to sit and not canni the regen advantage goes up to 11. That is no joke. And depending on situation that could be perfectly acceptable. I’ve worn a fungi on so many chars that getting an extra chloro buff of 10hp/tick is a night and day difference. I don’t even notice when fungi is on but I notice when I have chloro. In a game of inches, which is what this is, having to cast less torpor’s per hour(and subsequently having to cast more canni to offset that) should not be taken lightly.

I would agree that FSI is the best trait for a soloing torpor shaman. But to have a constant 8-11 extra hp/tick at level 60 is still a big deal.

At the end of the day it’s ~chloroplast/clicky snare(even if shitty it’s enough to make up inches) vs a ~33% chance to not get stunned. This is precisely why nobody will ever agree on the best shaman race.

I 100% agree if you want a specific racial because you want to play a specific way, that is fine. There is nothing wrong with a Torpor Shaman being lazy and AFK recovering.

All I am trying to say is min/max doesn't take individual things like APM into account. Min/max is objective, and assumes you are playing optimally. This means you are always canni/torporing when not at full HP/MP. If you can't do that due to disabilities, or are lazy, that doesn't change the objective facts. It simply changes which racial is better for your specific case.

I prefer people have the objective facts. Then they can use those facts to make the best decision for them personally. It's better than everybody bringing 100s of slightly different subjective opinions, because you can never get to the truth that way. This is a video game, built on math and rules. There is an objectively best way to play, and people should know what it is. Then they can choose whether or not they want to play that way.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I 100% agree if you want a specific racial because you want to play a specific way, that is fine. There is nothing wrong with a Torpor Shaman being lazy and AFK recovering.

All I am trying to say is min/max doesn't take individual things like APM into account. Min/max is objective, and assumes you are playing optimally. This means you are always canni/torporing when not at full HP/MP. If you can't do that due to disabilities, or are lazy, that doesn't change the objective facts. It simply changes which racial is better for your specific case.

I prefer people have the objective facts. Then they can use those facts to make the best decision for them personally. It's better than everybody bringing 100s of slightly different subjective opinions, because you can never get to the truth that way. This is a video game, built on math and rules. There is an objectively best way to play, and people should know what it is. Then they can choose whether or not they want to play that way.

Unfortunately there’s no data to say that FSI will save you over the 80-160 extra regen hp in a 1-2 minute long pre slow situation. Especially given the fact that the best solo artist shaman was a barbarian. This is why people tend to favor regen over FSi. It’s something hard and measurable. We know it will give you more hp. We don’t know if FSI will ever actually do anything. And I don’t think there’s a documented case of it ever saving someone’s life. If it’s not saving someone’s life, it’s more of an annoyance if anything.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unfortunately there’s no data to say that FSI will save you over the 80-160 extra regen hp in a 1-2 minute long pre slow situation. Especially given the fact that the best solo artist shaman was a barbarian. This is why people tend to favor regen over FSi. It’s something hard and measurable. We know it will give you more hp. We don’t know if FSI will ever actually do anything. And I don’t think there’s a documented case of it ever saving someone’s life. If it’s not saving someone’s life, it’s more of an annoyance if anything. We don’t even know if will allow a shaman to get a solo off faster. Since turgurs has a 6 second recast time.

There isn't any data to show that extra HP/Regen will save you either[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You actually need to record a fight and check moment to moment how much HP you would have with and without Regen. Even if you can point to a specific point in the fight where you would be dead if you didn't have the extra HP/Regen, that doesn't take into account the fact that you probably would have played a bit differently due to noticing your HP being lower.

In reality both FSI and Regen have a very small percent chance to save you from dying specifically throughout the duration of a fight. You don't need data to understand this point. It is simply a non-zero percentage that is small in both cases.

FSI is better with Torpor because FSI can ALSO make the pre-slow phase of a fight easier (the first minute or so). Being able to land a slow a few seconds earlier (due to not having to recast it because of an interrupt) can easily save you 100s of HP due to having the mob slowed a few seconds earlier. This could be the difference between having to gate, and stabilizing the fight.

Nobody is claiming Regeneration or FSI is required to beat content, so the point about the Barbarian is irrelevant. We are simply determining which racial is better, not which one is required. Neither are.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At the end of the day it’s ~chloroplast/clicky snare(even if shitty it’s enough to make up inches) vs a ~33% chance to not get stunned. This is precisely why nobody will ever agree on the best shaman race.

You can see regen working in real time.
FSI would need extensive parsing and record keeping. You would likely need a 60 warrior slamming off CD (not timing to spells) and two 60 shams with similar gear but Ogre and Other.

The issue with FSI is why would anyone take the time with math and record keeping when you can just posture on the forums claiming it’s noticeably better? That’s far easier than doing math or killing a bunch of things and putting yourself on this list:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Solo_Ar...e_Hall_of_Fame

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can see regen working in real time.
FSI would need extensive parsing and record keeping. You would likely need a 60 warrior slamming off CD (not timing to spells) and two 60 shams with similar gear but Ogre and Other.

The issue with FSI is why would anyone take the time with math and record keeping when you can just posture on the forums claiming it’s noticeably better? That’s far easier than doing math or killing a bunch of things and putting yourself on this list:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Solo_Ar...e_Hall_of_Fame

You can see FSI working in real time too. I never get stunned on my Ogre from bashes. You can watch my videos, I never get stunned.

Regeneration is very easy to math out how useful it is (or isn't).