Enchanter vs Shaman. Who is the better money maker?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a really horrible example of napkin math. You aren't factoring in root casting time, canni time to regain root mana, and casting time on the epic.

For an example, Rooting & killing 9 mobs with 1 epic click each is around 193.5 seconds including casting times. That's 66 dps(12825 total epic damage). Then you'd have to go off and find other mobs to root, click epic,. And by the time you root rot a 10th mob, the first 1 will die. Before you get to the 11th cast off, the 2nd mob dies. The reality is you're doing 75-80ish dps when you factor in canni + pet + epic. A mage is easily doing around ~150.

There's no comparison here, I'm not sure why you think shaman dps = mage dps, when you've constantly been proved wrong time and time again.

If you want to take "time to find mobs" into account, then Mages lose DPS too hehe. It also takes time for the Mage to run and find other mobs. It also takes time for Mages to manage their pet. You can't simply claim this for one class and not the other. Napkin math is there because I can't predict the precise play style of every player in P99, so mileage will always vary a bit[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can root the 9 mobs before you start applying the Epic clicks. So yes, you can have 135 DPS + Pet DPS once you get that rolling. It takes around 30 seconds to root all of those mobs using paralyzing earth, so yes, you are losing DPS if you want to take that time into account. But as I said before, most Mages don't have their Epic. The numbers I gave for Mages is using the EPIC PET. Not only do Mages probably have lower DPS by not having their epic pet, but you also need to take into account the time/mana it takes to chain cast pets and re-apply your damage shield, burnout, and maybe mask of mardu if you are using it.

The issue here is you have some weird idea that I am trying to say Shaman DPS = Mage DPS. What I am saying is Shamans can do a lot of DPS, and for some reason people don't believe it. Mage DPS is better at single target fights, there is no question. But when a Shaman can root/rot multiple targets, you are killing a lot faster than you think.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want to take "time to find mobs" into account, then Mages lose DPS too hehe. It also takes time for the Mage to run and find other mobs. It also takes time for Mages to manage their pet. You can't simply claim this for one class and not the other. Napkin math is there because I can't predict the precise play style of every player in P99, so mileage will always vary a bit[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can root the 9 mobs before you start applying the Epic clicks. So yes, you can have 135 DPS + Pet DPS once you get that rolling. It takes around 30 seconds to root all of those mobs using paralyzing earth, so yes, you are losing DPS if you want to take that time into account. But as I said before, most Mages don't have their Epic. The numbers I gave for Mages is using the EPIC PET. Not only do Mages probably have lower DPS by not having their epic pet, but you also need to take into account the time/mana it takes to chain cast pets and re-apply your damage shield, burnout, and maybe mask of mardu if you are using it.

The issue here is you have some weird idea that I am trying to say Shaman DPS = Mage DPS. What I am saying is Shamans can do a lot of DPS, and for some reason people don't believe it. Mage DPS is better at single target fights, there is no question. But when a Shaman can root/rot multiple targets, you are killing a lot faster than you think.

If you had 9 mobs already rooted, it would take you around 85 seconds to epic dot all 9 mobs. So it would take 85 seconds + 90 seconds to kill all 9 mobs. That is 12825 / 171 = 71.25 DPS. Factor in 30 seconds of rooting, 12825 / 201 = 64 DPS.

If you had 18 mobs already rooted. It would take you around 170 seconds to dot all of them. So 170 seconds + 90 seconds to kill all 18 mobs. 25650 / 260 = 99 DPS. If you want to factor in 60 seconds of rooting, 25650 / 290 = 88 DPS. That's being generous, you wont be able to root 18 mobs in 60 seconds.

We still haven't calculated in the multiple minutes to regain your mana it will take when you run OOM after like 30ish roots.

Epic has diminishing returns because its long casting time, there are only so many mobs you can keep epic dotted. You can't simply say it's 15 dps and multiply that by any number you want indefinitely. This is why shaman's typically only root rot about 4-5 at a time. It's extremely diminishing returns. I was being generous with shamans in my previous post. If we are taking away epic pets from mages, then in reality a shaman is probably doing around 60ish dps in droga, where a mage will have no problem maintaing 120ish dps.

At this point based on your previous response I can only assume you are incapable of understanding basic math, so I can no longer debate such matters with you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you had 9 mobs already rooted, it would take you around 85 seconds to epic dot all 9 mobs. So it would take 85 seconds + 90 seconds to kill all 9 mobs. That is 12825 / 171 = 71.25 DPS. Factor in 30 seconds of rooting, 12825 / 201 = 64 DPS.

If you had 18 mobs already rooted. It would take you around 175 seconds to dot all of them. So 170 seconds + 90 seconds to kill all 18 mobs. 25650 / 260 = 99 DPS. If you want to factor in 60 seconds of rooting, 25650 / 290 = 88 DPS. That's being generous, you wont be able to root 18 mobs in 60 seconds.

We still haven't calculated in the multiple minutes to regain your mana it will take when you room OOM after like 30ish roots.

Epic has diminishing returns because its long casting time, there are only so many mobs you can keep epic dotted. You can't simply say it's 15 dps and multiply that by any number you want indefinitely. This is why shaman's typically only root rot about 4-5 at a time. It's extremely diminishing returns. I was being generous with shamans in my previous post. If we are taking away epic pets from mages, then in reality a shaman is probably doing around 60ish dps in droga, where a mage will have no problem maintaing 120ish dps.

At this point based on your previous response I can only assume you are incapable of understanding basic math, so I can no longer debate such matters with you.

The problem here is you really want to "prove me wrong" and/or insult me (due to the previous thread), rather than understand what I am saying.

What you are talking about is trying to determine the average DPS over the duration of the fight.

Let's say each mob has 2000 HP. We are not going to include pull times into this, because that is quite varied across camps/players.

It takes me 30 seconds to apply all of the roots.

It takes me 81 seconds to apply 9 clicks of Epic, assuming perfect refresh.

The last monster to die will have their DoT started at 111 seconds into the fight. It will take 90 seconds for the DoTs to clear, but only 81 seconds to re-apply, so the last monster to die will have taken full damage and had their DoT re-applied by the 201 second mark. Since the DoT doesn't need to apply full damage to kill a mob with 2000 HP, the fight will take roughly another 66 seconds (11 ticks) for a total of 267 seconds. In that case, the DPS total is 18000 / 267 = 67 DPS. Pet DPS is around 15, so if you add that together it is more like 83 DPS. It will then take roughly 1 minute to Torpor/Canni back 900 mana from the roots.

The reason why I say 135 DPS as a short hand is because I am also doing the same thing for Mages with the 150 DPS, where I am putting the best possible DPS in a vacuum, instead of writing the longer explanation above, so people can get a rough estimate without doing a lot of reading. As you will see below, Mages also have lower DPS when applying additional factors.

As for a Non-Epic Mage, let's say their pet does 70 DPS (it's a rough estimate since Epic Pet's factually do 80-90 DPS). This is with Burnout and Mask of Mardu.

A Mage's damage shield does 33 Damage compared to the Epic Pet's 50 damage, so the DPS is roughly 16 (66% of the 25 DPS quoted above).

A Mage spamming Boots of Bladecalling is doing 35 DPS.

Combined that is 120 DPS in a vacuum.

However, this is not taking into account chain petting. Lets say you are chain petting every other mob. All level 60 pets cost 370 mana after specialization reduction and has a 10 second cast time. Cadeu of Flame is 155 mana and has a 4.5 second cast time. Burnout is 15 seconds on the pants clickie.

That means every other mob, you are spending a minimum of 30 seconds recasting the pet and re-appplying buffs. That is reducing the Boots of Bladecalling DPS by Half, as well as lowering your pet/DS dps. Realistically if you are chain petting every other mob, you are losing roughly 30 DPS on the second mob, so your average is more like 105 DPS. The mana cost is also 525, and if you are spamming Boots of Bladecalling you are not meditating. So realistically your DPS is going down further when taking into account med times.

In more precise terms, the DPS difference is closer to 83 vs 95 when taking into account the extra meditating a Mage needs to do because they can't sit down while spamming the Boots. The difference of 12 isn't really much different than the 135/150 number I was showing with Mages vs. Shamans. It's just a lot easier to say that instead of everything else I said just now[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem here is you really want to "prove me wrong" and/or insult me (due to the previous thread), rather than understand what I am saying.

What you are talking about is trying to determine the average DPS over the duration of the fight.

Let's say each mob has 2000 HP. We are not going to include pull times into this, because that is quite varied across camps/players.

It takes me 30 seconds to apply all of the roots.

It takes me 81 seconds to apply 9 clicks of Epic, assuming perfect refresh.

The last monster to die will have their DoT started at 111 seconds into the fight. It will take 90 seconds for the DoTs to clear, but only 81 seconds to re-apply, so the last monster to die will have taken full damage and had their DoT re-applied by the 201 second mark. Since the DoT doesn't need to apply full damage to kill a mob with 2000 HP, the fight will take roughly another 66 seconds (11 ticks) for a total of 267 seconds. In that case, the DPS total is 18000 / 267 = 67 DPS. Pet DPS is around 15, so if you add that together it is more like 83 DPS. It will then take roughly 1 minute to Torpor/Canni back 900 mana from the roots.

Three minute root duration means you're either re-applying some roots or tanking some goblins as the fight progresses.

I have never seen a shaman rooting 7-9 goblins at a time in Droga. I see magicians in there once in awhile. At some point the sheer hassle of a mode of gameplay becomes more nuisance than a zone is worth. The main reason to go to Droga in the first place is to be able to gain modest income for extremely low effort. I suspect the real choice between those two for Droga is mage-or-nothing because the typical shaman isn't going to bother doing all that. He'll do something that the magician can't like west wastes dragons instead.

With respect to the actual thread title, the answer is obviously enchanter, and I think absolutely all of us are in agreement on that point.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Three minute root duration means you're either re-applying some roots or tanking some goblins as the fight progresses.

I have never seen a shaman rooting 7-9 goblins at a time in Droga. I see magicians in there once in awhile. At some point the sheer hassle of a mode of gameplay becomes more nuisance than a zone is worth. The main reason to go to Droga in the first place is to be able to gain modest income for extremely low effort. I suspect the real choice between those two for Droga is mage-or-nothing because the typical shaman isn't going to bother doing all that. He'll do something that the magician can't like west wastes dragons instead.

With respect to the actual thread title, the answer is obviously enchanter, and I think absolutely all of us are in agreement on that point.

Danth

I've done it before. That's how I got my faction up in Chardok. I am not saying playing a Shaman is easier than playing a Mage in Droga. I am simply pointing out it is very doable, and not that slow.

Everybody is in agreement that Enchanter is the better money maker, and everybody is in agreement a Mage is much easier to play in Droga.

But not everybody has a level 60 Mage, Enchanter, and Shaman to choose between when farming. I myself only have the Shaman, and killing in Droga as a Shaman is fast enough to where it isn't worth my time getting a Mage to 60 just to save a bit of time/effort. Overall that would take longer.

[Danth]

Well yeah, have to use what's available. My own character is a shadow knight and it's the same type of situation: From time to time I'll solo stuff on it that wouldn't cross my mind to think about recommending or bringing up in a discussion of choosing a new character.
Wonder how my droga kill times compare. I've never timed it. (See above comment on my opinion of Droga--I only go there if I feel like being lazy in the first place, so I don't pay much attention). As a melee I'm not pulling 6+ at once but due to shroud of death and epic lifetaps, I don't have to stop, either. Bet it's similar. Off-topic, obviously, but interesting.

With respect to new characters, one of my big gripes with enchanter is it doesn't have a very good way of "taking it easy." It's too reliant on charm; the summoned pet can't be easily controlled. The Enchanter practically demands the player has a strong alternate character for when he wants an easy day. It's probably the strongest overall class, certainly the best money-maker, but I seldom think of it as a particularly good "only" character for a person due to its "high hassle ALL the time" kind of gameplay. Shaman can take it easy if it wants to.

Danth

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With respect to the actual thread title, the answer is obviously enchanter, and I think absolutely all of us are in agreement on that point.

On P99, absolutely. Meanwhile, this is what classic Enchanters were actually able to do ("in theory" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])

PLAYER STRATEGY - ENCHANTER
A THEORYON SOLOING THE ARCH GHOUL MAGI - Livo, Terris-Thule
This isnt anywhere near complete, your welcome to rework this, adn remember this is in *THEORY*
beforehand, make sure your buffed with:
Adorning grace
Rune IV
Resist magic
Clarity

Another other buffs you want, just make sure your FM when the magi pops
recommended spells to be memmed:
Tashania
Gate
Clarity(you can refresh and unmem it before a spawn and replace it with shiftless deeds))
Rune IV
Color flux
Color shift
Color skew
Discordant mind

When the magi pops, you immediatly tash him (dont give me that) and stun him (hes most likely started a nuke) if you have shiftless deeds up, now is the time to cast it. Now basically, my theory works around you stunning him when he starts a nuke and using shiftless to keep the damage done to your pet down as low as possible. when the magi starts running low on health unless a volley of nukes if your manas good, but its good to knock his hp off fast so he doesnt run.
Im sure a lot of you have thought of this or similar strategies, but you wouldnt believe how many people havent considered this. this is just a rough outline on how it could be done, if your up to it go out and try it!

Strategy Submitted on: Wednesday, March 01, 2000

[Castle2.0]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In more precise terms, the DPS difference is closer to 83 vs 95 when taking into account the extra meditating a Mage needs to do because they can't sit down while spamming the Boots.

Hahaha, guys, my fellow autist number cruncher doesn't know you CAN sit while casting the boots! Just make sure you stand before it's done casting [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by Castle2.0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hahaha, guys, my fellow autist number cruncher doesn't know you CAN sit while casting the boots! Just make sure you stand before it's done casting [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They got rid of that on green months ago,is it still possible on blue?

[Castle2.0]

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They got rid of that on green months ago,is it still possible on blue?

No idea, this game is a memory to me. I didn't know dragons were rooted or all the other crazy stuff they've done.