Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not.

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Literally everyone but you already knows.

You are using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum to try and win the debate. I am sorry, but that doesn't work. It is a fallacy.

Provide evidence for your claims please, or admit defeat.

[Danth]

Debate has subtly shifted from shaman matching magician damage in normal situatons--that's been largely walked back from--to the classic offense vs. defense/utility debate that will rage as long as this genre exists. Nobody's winning that one and if someone even could it would indicate a major game balance problem.

My problem with a magician isn't even the shaman, exactly, but that unless I need to be Call of the Hero'd someplace I will always prefer a necromancer. A Shaman can at least justify himself once in awhile--your cleric goes AFK, or doesn't log on, you go to West Wastes and want a pseudo-tank, etc. I regard both magician and shaman as a 4th in that group as a battle of the back-ups but between them I still like the shaman better, accepting that in practice the difference in outcome will be relatively minor in either case and there are some individual locations that favor the magician.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Debate has subtly shifted from shaman matching magician damage in normal situatons--that's been largely walked back from--to the classic offense vs. defense/utility debate that will rage as long as this genre exists. Nobody's winning that one and if someone even could it would indicate a major game balance problem.

My problem with a magician isn't even the shaman, exactly, but that unless I need to be Call of the Hero'd someplace I will always prefer a necromancer. A Shaman can at least justify himself once in awhile--your cleric goes AFK, or doesn't log on, you go to West Wastes and want a pseudo-tank, etc. I regard both magician and shaman as a 4th in that group as a battle of the back-ups but between them I still like the shaman better, accepting that in practice the difference in outcome will be relatively minor in either case and there are some individual locations that favor the magician.

Danth

I didn't walk it back to be honest. Someone simply pointed out that you could get a bit more DPS from clickies. It was a good point, and changes the equation a bit, but a Shaman can also get more DPS from clickies. My calculations for 80DPS vs. 70DPS weren't taking into account Shaman or Mage clickies. It wasn't a one sided shift.

Math-wise Mage and Shaman DPS doesn't have a vast gulf, like people have been trying to claim. The entire argument of bringing a Mage is Malo + Charm Break Safety + DPS. A Shaman has Malo + Charm Break Safety covered, and DPS wise the different isn't vast. A difference in 30 DPS isn't going to matter with two Charmed Enchanter pets. A Shaman is simply bringing a much broader toolkit to the table without a huge sacrifice in DPS.

Again, this is assuming a level 60 group that doesn't need CoTH. As I have always stated, a Mage is superior levels 1-59, because Torpor is what pushes the Shaman ahead.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't walk it back to be honest. Someone simply pointed out that you could get a bit more DPS from clickies. It was a good point, and changes the equation a bit, but a Shaman can also get more DPS from clickies. My calculations for 80DPS vs. 70DPS weren't taking into account Shaman or Mage clickies. It wasn't a one sided shift.

Math-wise Mage and Shaman DPS doesn't have a vast gulf, like people have been trying to claim. The entire argument of bringing a Mage is Malo + Charm Break Safety + DPS. A Shaman has Malo + Charm Break Safety covered, and DPS wise the different isn't vast. A difference in 30 DPS isn't going to matter with two Charmed Enchanter pets. A Shaman is simply bringing a much broader toolkit to the table without a huge sacrifice in DPS.

I just want to point how how you continue to move the goalposts. You started out saying that a Shaman can out-DPS a Mage, then you shifted to saying the Shaman is "close enough" DPS to the Mage, now you are saying that a Shaman can also be casting slow and Malo as well as spamming a JBB, while still putting out DPS comparable to a Mage. The entire basis of your "math" argument rested on the fact that a Shaman can output respectable DPS across multiple rooted mobs IF YOU DO NOTHING BUT CAST DOTS AND CANNI/TORPOR NONSTOP. And yet you continue to pile on all these other things the Shaman is supposedly doing at the same time. It's almost as if you are dishonest, or more probably just have an enormous intellectual blind spot in this argument as a consequence of your "special" psychology.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A Mage's DPS is also going to be lower in a fight that is 20-30 seconds long

And here we see you don't even understand the concept of DPS, or at least how DPS works for a Mage compared to a Shaman. A Mage does not need his DoTs to ramp up over time the way a Shaman does with Epic, or with any DoT for that matter to get the full mana/HP value of the spell. The Mage pet is basically a chainsaw you aim at a mob and it does XXX damage every second it's attacking. It doesn't matter if it attacks the mob for 10 seconds or 1000 seconds. The DPS is the same because it always does XXX damage for every second its attacking (on average). And as long as the fight lasts long enough to get one clickie nuke from staff or boots, you are also getting the full DPS value from those items as well. And most importantly, all of that damage from the pet and the clickie nuke is MANA-FREE and can be sustained indefinitely with essentially zero effort besides two button clicks per mob. Meanwhile, you are apparently rooting, slowing, maloing, casting epic, JBB, Pox, Bane, Canni and Torpor all while maintaining DPS equivalent to a Mage who is using ZERO MANA. It's an asinine claim.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just want to point how how you continue to move the goalposts. You started out saying that a Shaman can out-DPS a Mage, then you shifted to saying the Shaman is "close enough" DPS to the Mage, now you are saying that a Shaman can also be casting slow and Malo as well as spamming a JBB, while still putting out DPS comparable to a Mage. The entire basis of your "math" argument rested on the fact that a Shaman can output respectable DPS across multiple rooted mobs IF YOU DO NOTHING BUT CAST DOTS AND CANNI/TORPOR NONSTOP. And yet you continue to pile on all these other things the Shaman is supposedly doing at the same time. It's almost as if you are dishonest, or more probably just have an enormous intellectual blind spot in this argument as a consequence of your "special" psychology.



And here we see you don't even understand the concept of DPS, or at least how DPS works for a Mage compared to a Shaman. A Mage does not need his DoTs to ramp up over time the way a Shaman does with Epic, or with any DoT for that matter to get the full mana/HP value of the spell. The Mage pet is basically a chainsaw you aim at a mob and it does XXX damage every second it's attacking. It doesn't matter if it attacks the mob for 10 seconds or 1000 seconds. The DPS is the same because it always does XXX damage for every second its attacking (on average). And as long as the fight lasts long enough to get one clickie nuke from staff or boots, you are also getting the full DPS value from those items as well. And most importantly, all of that damage from the pet and the clickie nuke is MANA-FREE and can be sustained indefinitely with essentially zero effort besides two button clicks per mob. Meanwhile, you are apparently rooting, slowing, maloing, casting epic, JBB, Pox, Bane, Canni and Torpor all while maintaining DPS equivalent to a Mage who is using ZERO MANA. It's an asinine claim.

Just read my previous post (the one above yours). I have the data in it. You were replying a bit too late[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Sorry you're so mad.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just want to point how how you continue to move the goalposts.

Oh I can pretty much promise you we’ll see more of that.

I have a 60 shaman. I can make and buff my pet to max too. I have a full spell kit. And I can promise you he will fail miserably trying … or he just won’t and will submit “alternate facts” to support his agenda.

I am clairvoyant. Watch and see.

I just want him to try. He’ll fail but knowing him he will “do math” and prove he is right.

We all know this already. Let’s help an autistic fella expand his mind though?

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not.



You are using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum to try and win the debate. I am sorry, but that doesn't work. It is a fallacy.

Provide evidence for your claims please, or admit defeat.

You are using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism to post a dumb opinion nobody else shares 200+ times. I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. It is autism.

Please get medication. I know you won't admit defeat no matter how wrong you are or what data anyone comes up with.