most underpowered class in game?

[greatdane]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's really simple, and I've already said it twice. If DPS was king, you would see gear checks to get into groups. Anybody with noob gear would never be able to get an XP group, because their DPS would be too low. I have never seen a gear check on P99 for any group. The only requirements for gear typically come from raiding guilds, for resistances and clickies, not DPS gear.

The only things that have any meaningful impact on melee DPS is weapon(s) and haste item. Gear doesn't really affect caster DPS at all, mana pool size is irrelevant in a grinding environment. The reason people don't screen players for gear before inviting them into group is not that DPS is irrelevant, it's because it's a piece of shit thing to do and also most players have good enough gear to where there isn't significant room for improvements. Nobody's gonna look at an epic rogue or t-staff monk and go "pfff, no Vulak weapon? GTFO!"

As long as the basic necessities are covered regarding heals/tank/CC, DPS is the most important thing in a group. It's just that on the whole, class has far, far more impact on DPS than gear does. Gear is irrelevant for casters, monks will often be out pulling half the time anyway, and rogues can get their epic from a vending machine. There's no real reason to screen for gear. There is a reason to screen for class, which people very much do, because DPS matters an incredible amount. This is why nobody is happy to take a druid or wizard along as DPS.

It's way too impractical to check someone's gear. What are you gonna do, send them a tell asking them to link their magelo? Have them show up and inspect them, then tell them to leave if they don't meet the standards? But you very much do mind what class they are, you do that yourself 100%, and that's because you know that if you don't have good DPS in the group, it's gonna be a dogshit group and a waste of your time.

Utility isn't that important. People know the game like the back of their hand and are vastly overgeared on average. Ask anyone whether they would prefer to fill their DPS spot with an epic rogue/mage, or a druid/wizard for the sake of having evac. A group needs enough healing and CC to not die, and then all that matters besides is DPS because that's what determines how well your time is spent.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only things that have any meaningful impact on melee DPS is weapon(s) and haste item. The reason people don't screen players for gear before inviting them into group is not that DPS is irrelevant, it's because it's a piece of shit thing to do and also most players have good enough gear to where there isn't significant room for improvements. Nobody's gonna look at an epic rogue and go "pfff, no Vulak dagger? GTFO!"

As long as the basic necessities are covered, DPS is the most important thing in a group. It's just that on the whole, class has far, far more impact on DPS than gear does. Gear has literally no impact on DPS for casters, monks will often be out pulling half the time anyway, and rogues can get their epic from a vending machine. There's no real reason to screen for gear. There is a reason to screen for class, which people very much do, because DPS matters an incredible amount. This is why nobody is happy to take a druid or wizard along as DPS.

It's way too impractical to check someone's gear. What are you gonna do, send them a tell asking them to link their magelo? Have them show up and inspect them, then tell them to leave if they don't meet the standards? But you very much do mind what class they are, you do that yourself 100%, and that's because you know that if you don't have good DPS in the group, it's gonna be a dogshit group and a waste of your time.

There is a small problem with your assertion that "DPS is the most important thing in a group". If it was, then you would screen gear. That is my point. Gear does significantly impact a melee character's DPS. For all you know, the rogue coming into your group doesn't have a haste item. If DPS was really that important, you would by necessity have to screen for gear on melee DPS characters. Otherwise, they just wouldn't be able to perform to your standards. You cannot simultaneously assume DPS is extremely important while also not caring about how much DPS someone does by not performing gear checks. It just doesn't make sense.

Having group members who know how to play the game and a decent group composition is all you really need to run most successful groups. Typically speaking a decent group composition has good utility, which is why utility is generally more important. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, as some camps are harder than usual, and need more specific compositions to be successful, but most normal camps do not need this.

I agree doing gear checks is a shitty thing to do, but luckily you don't actually have to do them, because DPS isn't as important as you claim[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: You are also incorrect about gear having no effect on caster DPS. Max mana can very much effect how much DPS a caster is doing. More med time = less casting = less DPS. And to be clear, I include CC and Healing in the "utility" category.

[greatdane]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is a small problem with your assertion that "DPS is the most important thing in a group". If it was, then you would screen gear. That is my point. Gear does significantly impact a melee character's DPS. For all you know, the rogue coming into your group doesn't have a haste item. If DPS was really that important, you would by necessity have to screen for gear on melee DPS characters. Otherwise, they just wouldn't be able to perform to your standards. You cannot simultaneously assume DPS is extremely important while also not caring about how much DPS someone does by not performing gear checks. It just doesn't make sense.

Having group members who know how to play the game and a decent group composition is all you really need to run most successful groups. Typically speaking a decent group composition has good utility, which is why utility is generally more important. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, as some camps are harder than usual, and need more specific compositions to be successful, but most normal camps do not need this.

I agree doing gear checks is a shitty thing to do, but luckily you don't actually have to do them, because DPS isn't as important as you claim[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: You are also incorrect about gear having no effect on caster DPS. Max mana can very much effect how much DPS a caster is doing. More med time = less casting = less DPS. And to be clear, I include CC and Healing in the "utility" category.

Nope. People don't screen gear because gear matters very little for DPS. Weapons and haste item for melees, and that's all. Since there's only two melee DPS classes and one of them can buy a pretty good weapon in EC for a modest sum and the other can pick its epic up from the gutter, there's no real need to screen them for gear. Casters don't rely on gear at all, the only thing that matters for caster DPS is mana regen and there isn't really any of that on gear in the P99 era. Doesn't matter in the slightest whether your mana pool is 3k or 4k if you're in a chain-pulling group where you're never dumping a full mana pool into one mob anyway. Besides, it's pretty trivial to reach the 200 int softcap, and nobody in the history of this server has ever scoffed at a mage who shows up wearing SMR, stein of moggok, runed cowl, etc. just because their mana pool is less than that of a raid-geared mage. It's irrelevant. They'll be sitting at ~50% mana the entire time anyway and the depth of their mana pool had no bearing on anything. Mana pool matters for quad-kiters and raiding clerics, and that's about it.

DPS matters an incredible amount, but DPS is mostly down to class, not gear. How often do you willingly choose a wizard over a rogue, or a druid over a magician, when filling a DPS spot? Probably never, unless you're favoring a friend over a stranger. That's because DPS matters more than anything when grinding, provided that you're not literally dying to XP mobs, which is very easy to prevent with just the very basics covered. Nobody puts together a group consisting of a cleric, druid, bard, enchanter, paladin and ranger, because while that group would have all the utility in the world, it wouldn't maintain an acceptable rate of kills/hour. Meanwhile, people will happily go with three or even four top-tier DPS classes and just a single healer and a tank.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can see your inexperience starting to show leveling different classes here on p99, hehe.

Mages do not struggle with getting into effective camps, lol. The population is quite low here, it is not hard to find stuff to keep them occupied.

Again you think utility = power. Wizards/Rangers specifically do not have this insane amount of options over a mage to effectively level just because they have more utility than a mage. I'd actually argue that they have less. There are very, very few spots a wizard can actually utilize and out perform what a mage could do. I can think of sents as a particular example in WL, but sents are really bad xp/hour. And a ranger loses a ton of options once you hit the 40s and mobs just wreck you. Fear kiting animals is extremely limited on options.



Echoing my previous post, I can confidently say a Ranger has less leveling paths than a mage. I know this, because I've spent many hours here leveling alts and gathering that data. Utility might help getting to a camp quicker, but once you are there and set up, and understand how it works, a mage can churn through mobs where a Ranger will either kill mobs very slowly or suffer from a lot of downtime after they do kill one.

There are plenty of mages that like to play beyond 55 and outside, coth bots are more like robots specifically created for that reason. Rogues can't solo for shit, they contribute highly to groups, but so does a mage, and they contribute highly to raids, but so does a mage. So given that mages are much, much better soloers, rogues are definitely more underpowered than them.

It's not inexperience. There have been plenty of times where I haven't been able to get into camps I should have just due to bad luck in terms of who was there at the time. The problem is you care way too much about leveling 1-60. Who cares if you can level a bit faster to level 60 if you stop playing the character at 60?[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] People stop playing Mages at 60 because they are a very bottom heavy class. They are great in the beginning and get worse every level, with the exception of CoTH. Utility helps more than DPS when a fight actually matters, and you aren't just clearing XP chaff, which any class can do honestly, with the exception of Rogues unless they are well twinked.

Please share the leveling path data!

EDIT: Also, you can't weigh soloing heavily for rogues, because they are a grouping class. Otherwise you would end up rating something like a Cleric lower, even though they shouldn't be rated lower because of that.

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nope. People don't screen gear because gear matters very little for DPS. Weapons and haste item for melees, and that's all. Since there's only two melee DPS classes and one of them can buy a pretty good weapon in EC for a modest sum and the other can pick its epic up from the gutter, there's no real need to screen them for gear. Casters don't rely on gear at all, the only thing that matters for caster DPS is mana regen and there isn't really any of that on gear in the P99 era. Doesn't matter in the slightest whether your mana pool is 3k or 4k if you're in a chain-pulling group where you're never dumping a full mana pool into one mob anyway. Besides, it's pretty trivial to reach the 200 int softcap, and nobody in the history of this server has ever scoffed at a mage who shows up wearing SMR, stein of moggok, runed cowl, etc. just because their mana pool is less than that of a raid-geared mage. It's irrelevant. They'll be sitting at ~50% mana the entire time anyway and the depth of their mana pool had no bearing on anything. Mana pool matters for quad-kiters and raiding clerics, and that's about it.

DPS matters an incredible amount, but DPS is mostly down to class, not gear. How often do you willingly choose a wizard over a rogue, or a druid over a magician, when filling a DPS spot? Probably never, unless you're favoring a friend over a stranger. That's because DPS matters more than anything when grinding, provided that you're not literally dying to XP mobs, which is very easy to prevent with just the very basics covered. Nobody puts together a group consisting of a cleric, druid, bard, enchanter, paladin and ranger, because while that group would have all the utility in the world, it wouldn't maintain an acceptable rate of kills/hour. Meanwhile, people will happily go with three or even four top-tier DPS classes and just a single healer and a tank.

I am sorry, but you are incorrect.

Melee DPS is heavily dependent on gear. As you say, Weapons and a Haste item. But plenty of people have bad weapons and haste items[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] If you don't gear screen, you could get a Rouge with an FBSS and a 0.33 ratio weapon or a Rogue with his Epic and a 0.6 ratio weapon. You probably don't notice the difference, even though the increase in DPS between those two would be considerable. Again, this is easy proof that DPS doesn't matter as much as you say.

The reason why people don't pick Wizards is mostly due to stigma. A good wizard (especially with clickies) can DPS fine.

Druids aren't really DPS classes in groups, so that isn't really a good analogy (unless they are charming, in which case they are better DPS than a Mage).

[Danth]

I also want to know where all these non-COTH-parked magicians at 60 are at, because I don't see 'em around very often at all in the parts of the game I hang out in. What are they doing? Besides raiding, that is. I see them doing something like 4-way in Kael Drakkel once in awhile but on balance it's a rather uncommon 60 to see out and about.

Danth

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: Also, you can't weigh soloing heavily for rogues, because they are a grouping class. Otherwise you would end up rating something like a Cleric lower, even though they shouldn't be rated lower because of that.

I disagree, you can specifically rate clerics lower for that reason. Any class is capable of soloing given the right conditions(rogues have solod to 60), so that needs to be factored in the overall equation.

When talking about overall power, no class is excluded from any one area and you need to consider every aspect of the game. Solo, duo, trio, 4, 5, 6 man groups, and raids. Clerics will take a hit because of solo, but they are a much better duo/trio class than rogues, so they get more points for that.

When you evaluate every aspect, mages do pretty well. Rogues do great in bigger groups & raids, but overall they fall pretty far down there with rangers & wizards.

If you think that OP/UP means giving rogues an exclusion in the solo scene since they weren't necessarily intended to be solo classes, then we are having 2 entirely different discussions [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Edit:
https://wiki.project1999.com/Loraen%...election_Guide

I think Loraen did a pretty good job at rating each class overall. I'd probably tweak a few things since he made this in Kunark era, like SK/pal can solo a lot better than he gives them credit for, but overall I think it's pretty good, and as you can see, magicians are pretty high up, because they shine in almost any situation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree, you can specifically rate clerics lower for that reason. Any class is capable of soloing given the right conditions(rogues have solod to 60), so that needs to be factored in the overall equation.

When talking about overall power, no class is excluded from any one area and you need to consider every aspect of the game. Solo, duo, trio, 4, 5, 6 man groups, and raids. Clerics will take a hit because of solo, but they are a much better duo/trio class than rogues, so they get more points for that.

When you evaluate every aspect, mages do pretty well. Rogues do great in bigger groups & raids, but overall they fall pretty far down there with rangers & wizards.

If you think that OP/UP means giving rogues an exclusion in the solo scene since they weren't necessarily intended to be solo classes, then we are having 2 entirely different discussions [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Edit:
https://wiki.project1999.com/Loraen%...election_Guide

I think Loraen did a pretty good job at rating each class overall. I'd probably tweak a few things since he made this in Kunark era, like SK/pal can solo a lot better than he gives them credit for, but overall I think it's pretty good, and as you can see, magicians are pretty high up, because they shine in almost any situation.

I am not giving rogues exclusion, I am evaluating each class based on what they are supposed to do. It is silly to highly evaluate rogues based on soloing when they are specifically designed not to solo.

Mages are designed to solo, group, and raid. Rogues are designed to group and raid. The only reason why raiding typically has a lower consideration in this type of evaluation is because a "normal" player is only casually raiding, REGARDLESS of class. So you can include such a consideration because it isn't class specific.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not giving rogues exclusion, I am evaluating each class based on what they are supposed to do. It is silly to highly evaluate rogues based on soloing when they are specifically designed not to solo.

Mages are designed to solo, group, and raid. Rogues are designed to group and raid. The only reason why raiding typically has a lower consideration in this type of evaluation is because a "normal" player is only casually raiding, REGARDLESS of class. So you can include such a consideration because it isn't class specific.

But you did give rogues an exclusion. You're choosing to leave out/ignore their main weakness in a thread that talks about OP/UP in your evaluation. Since it doesn't specify which area of power, we have to assume it applies to all aspects of the game. And it's really not just solo, group, and raid. You have to look at group compositions too, and a mage simply is a much better duo/trio class overall than a rogue is.