Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[Siberious]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I truly don't understand how I'm "all over the place"; I've continuously repeated the same, very basic, points, over and over throughout this thread:

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

2) Prior to 60/Torpor, HP help you survive and level faster than mana does

3) At 60/with Torpor, for the kinds of fights I've listed (eg. PoM A4, Efreeti, WW Dragons, Crypt in Seb) the hard part of winning the fight isn't having enough mana to cast what you need: the hard part is surviving long enough to land slow.

If you don't want to contest those points, great: talk about your PE hammer-wielding ogre and how he proves non-raid Barbs should invest in Wisdom. Post magelos of what a Shaman looks like at the very end of their career and use that as justification for why they should have less HP for the 99% rest of their career.

More power to you, but personally this mindless arguing is exhausting me, so I'm simply not going to reply to any more posts here unless someone posts a logical argument or evidence that actually contradicts the above points.

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

No barb shaman does, period. This isn't some point people are trying to dodge cause they can't dispute it, it's simply irrelevant to the conversation. I also proved you can max it, if you want, with very little detriment to anything else (see my previous posts).

2) Prior to 60/Torpor, HP help you survive and level faster than mana does

Lol, no one is saying hps don't help you survive. However, the vast majority of time you spend leveling and pre-torpor is 50+ and you aren't face tanking much at that point if you're attempting to level or gain plat in any sort of efficient fashion. So no, the extra +20 sta compared to +20 wisdom (This is the actual conversation we're trying to have) does not help you level faster. You can get whatever spread of HP/Mana you want off of gear to help you level faster in the fashion you want, but this point is again half baked on your side, no one is contesting HPs being very important, we're talking about starting stats, and the +20 sta doesn't help you level faster, and in reality the +20 wis wouldn't either, they're both marginal.

3) At 60/with Torpor, for the kinds of fights I've listed (eg. PoM A4, Efreeti, WW Dragons, Crypt in Seb) the hard part of winning the fight isn't having enough mana to cast what you need: the hard part is surviving long enough to land slow.

This is also misleading. Not only because the +20 sta at char creation is very likely irrelevant in these cases (again, no one is contesting hps being important, just talking about starting stats), but the vast majority of the time you're dying in these scenarios is because you are oom AND run out of hps (I've done all of these, so yes i'm familiar with them). This is because you're not stable without slow+torp, but you have plenty of time to malo/root/kite/attempt slows/pet tanks/heal self etc. So unless you're just standing there spamming slows and not healing yourself or trying to kite/CC, you aren't dying with much mana left if any. Again, hps are clearly important. You need them to solo these types of encounters, but the way you're presenting it as if the +20 sta is going to save your life here is misleading, because it's almost never going to save you, as you'll almost always go oom by the time you're dead.

If you don't want to contest those points, great: talk about your PE hammer-wielding ogre and how he proves non-raid Barbs should invest in Wisdom. Post magelos of what a Shaman looks like at the very end of their career and use that as justification for why they should have less HP for the 99% rest of their career.

More power to you, but personally this mindless arguing is exhausting me, so I'm simply not going to reply to any more posts here unless someone posts a logical argument or evidence that actually contradicts the above points.

I clearly contested these points, though I don't expect you to consider them contested based on previous experience with trying to have this conversation. Also I don't have a PE hammer-wielding ogre (again, that's someone else), I offered to make a magelo, you asked for a it, and I provided it, so don't pretend I made one of a shaman at the end of their "career" when I very much didn't.

Also the +sta is objectively worse than the +wis while leveling in my opinion, especially given you have much better +ac/sta/hp combos for armor options on gear than wisdom/mana. You get better returns on the +wis than +sta through the entirety of time playing. So it makes sense to take the armor that has better overall combinations of ac and/or hp and/or sta and bulk up on the wisdom at char select since it's a single stat option, and not combined with other stats. And as demonstrated, you can cap sta without starting with more than 105, with very little determent to other stats, but you'll never cap wisdom without severe loss of hps.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol, no one is saying hps don't help you survive. However, the vast majority of time you spend leveling and pre-torpor is 50+ and you aren't face tanking much at that point if you're attempting to level or gain plat in any sort of efficient fashion. So no, the extra +20 sta compared to +20 wisdom (This is the actual conversation we're trying to have) does not help you level faster.

I never said that +20 of either is going to make a huge difference; to the contrary I wrote:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not "talking absolutes", and I fully agree you could put all points in Charisma and still be perfectly happy playing that Shaman for a decade ... but we are theorycrafting on what's best for a non-high-end raid shaman here.

And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the vast majority of the time you're dying in these scenarios is because you are oom AND run out of hps (I've done all of these, so yes i'm familiar with them). This is because you're not stable without slow+torp, but you have plenty of time to malo/root/kite/attempt slows/pet tanks/heal self etc. So unless you're just standing there spamming slows and not healing yourself or trying to kite/CC, you aren't dying with much mana left if any.

You and I have had very different experiences in these fights. Just to (again) make sure we're on the same page, we're talking about mobs like 22 in PoM, or Hierophant in Crypt, correct?

The vast, vast majority of the times I've died in such fights, I've had plenty of mana, but I couldn't land a slow (or reslow) in time and I died from lack of HP. Only in the extreme minority ... I'd guess well under 5% ... did I land a slow, get the fight going, battle the mob for awhile, and land a re-slow, yet I somehow ran out of mana and died.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I didn't start at max mana in any of those fights: they were always ones where I started with less than max because I was trying to beat someone to a mob. Honestly, it's almost unheard of for Loramin to start a fight with full mana and even get to OOM at the end (dead or alive), because Cann + Torpor is a really good combo.

But again, I'd welcome evidence, or just a good logical argument, for why I'm doing them wrong and most other Shaman would burn through their entire mana pool before dying.

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I offered to make a magelo, you asked for a it, and I provided it, so don't pretend I made one of a shaman at the end of their "career" when I very much didn't.

I did ask: A) I wanted to get us on the same page, but also I'll admit: B) I wanted you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with your argument, and you (and others) did so wonderfully.

You all provided Magelos of a Shaman who's finished 99% of their Shamaning ... further supporting my point that the kind of Shaman we're talking about (Barb, non-high-end-raid) won't hit the Stamina cap until they're almost done playing.

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also the +sta is objectively worse than the +wis while leveling in my opinion,

The fact that you even wrote that sentence, where you used the word "objectively" in literally the same sentence that you said "in my opinion" just shows you don't even understand what the words you're using mean. It's like someone saying something is hot and cold at the same time: how do you talk to someone like that? But I genuinely do appreciate you actually addressing my points (at least mostly)!

[Siberious]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never said that +20 of either is going to make a huge difference; to the contrary I wrote:



And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.



You and I have had very different experiences in these fights. Just to (again) make sure we're on the same page, we're talking about mobs like 22 in PoM, or Hierophant in Crypt, correct?

The vast, vast majority of the times I've died in such fights, I've had plenty of mana, but I couldn't land a slow (or reslow) in time and I died from lack of HP. Only in the extreme minority ... I'd guess well under 5% ... did I land a slow, get the fight going, battle the mob for awhile, and land a re-slow, yet I somehow ran out of mana and died.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I didn't start at max mana in any of those fights: they were always ones where I started with less than max because I was trying to beat someone to a mob. Honestly, it's almost unheard of for Loramin to start a fight with full mana and even get to OOM at the end (dead or alive), because Cann + Torpor is a really good combo.

But again, I'd welcome evidence, or just a good logical argument, for why I'm doing them wrong and most other Shaman would burn through their entire mana pool before dying.



I did ask: A) I wanted to get us on the same page, but also I'll admit: B) I wanted you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with your argument, and you (and others) did so wonderfully.

You all provided Magelos of a Shaman who's finished 99% of their Shamaning ... further supporting my point that the kind of Shaman we're talking about (Barb, non-high-end-raid) won't hit the Stamina cap until they're almost done playing.



The fact that you even wrote that sentence, where you used the word "objectively" in literally the same sentence that you said "in my opinion" just shows you don't even understand what the words you're using mean. It's like someone saying something is hot and cold at the same time: how do you talk to someone like that? But I genuinely do appreciate you actually addressing my points (at least mostly)!

And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.

I have explained myself here multiple times. I'd rather have the extra mana while leveling, max level, and after torp. This is because the extra hps from the sta isn't going to help me achieve any of the prior any more efficiently than if I had the extra mana from +wis. I even think the extra mana is more helpful for casting more spells while leveling or farming because most everything 40+ is root rotting if solo unless you exclusively tank/spank with a JBB (which I don't do and wouldn't plan on doing except for a certain window of leveling from when it's useable into the low 50s). I can always get to 205 sta eventually with gear if I want. So since there is the possibility that my +20 sta will be wasted eventually, i'll go with the +20 wis that won't ever go to waste. It's not exclusively about helping more, it's also about what makes sense in the long run to maximize my stats. I also happen to think it's more helpful however.

You and I have had very different experiences in these fights. Just to (again) make sure we're on the same page, we're talking about mobs like 22 in PoM, or Hierophant in Crypt, correct?

The vast, vast majority of the times I've died in such fights, I've had plenty of mana, but I couldn't land a slow (or reslow) in time and I died from lack of HP. Only in the extreme minority ... I'd guess well under 5% ... did I land a slow, get the fight going, battle the mob for awhile, and land a re-slow, yet I somehow ran out of mana and died.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I didn't start at max mana in any of those fights: they were always ones where I started with less than max because I was trying to beat someone to a mob. Honestly, it's almost unheard of for Loramin to start a fight with full mana and even get to OOM at the end (dead or alive), because Cann + Torpor is a really good combo.

But again, I'd welcome evidence, or just a good logical argument, for why I'm doing them wrong and most other Shaman would burn through their entire mana pool before dying.

My comment on running oom and dying around the same time is very specific to prior to landing the first slow. If the mob is slowed, you win, unless you simply aren't geared to handle the duration of the fight of the slowed mob. You can kite 22 until slowed, so mana definitely plays a role. You don't need to engage it prior to it being slowed. If slow falls off because of reslow, mana is helpful because the only way it doesn't get reslowed is if you ran oom trying to reslow it. I can't see a scenario where I have tons of mana and reslow didn't land in time, unless it was user error and I went for reslows too late (this has happened of course, everyone spaces out sometimes).

Similar to 22 a WW dragon isn't gonna get face tanked the entire time while trying to slow it. You can make some space for at least a couple slow attempts during pull to kill spot, then torping self and trying more slows.

In crypt you can attempt to malo/root take small step back to get a slow attempt in, at least 1-2 times throughout the slow attempts while torping self. Less room to work with here but there is some flexibility. Even worst case tossing a chloroblast between waiting for slow gem to refresh to buy you some more hps between slow attempts can help render you oom around the time you run out of hps and die, but at least you get an extra slow attempt off.

I did ask: A) I wanted to get us on the same page, but also I'll admit: B) I wanted you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with your argument, and you (and others) did so wonderfully.

You all provided Magelos of a Shaman who's finished 99% of their Shamaning ... further supporting my point that the kind of Shaman we're talking about (Barb, non-high-end-raid) won't hit the Stamina cap until they're almost done playing.

Again, I believe you're off base here. This shaman was not anywhere close to done with 99% of there shamaning, I completely disagree with that. I've listed and showed multiple times plenty of more upgrades to be had, that take significant time. I showed it was possible to cap stamina, while also continuing to acknowledge you realistically won't cap it for a long time, and that's okay because i'd prefer the extra mana from the +20 wis regardless, and because I think it's at least as, if not more, helpful than the hps from the sta, and it'll never go to waste.

The fact that you even wrote that sentence, where you used the word "objectively" in literally the same sentence that you said "in my opinion" just shows you don't even understand what the words you're using mean. It's like someone saying something is hot and cold at the same time: how do you talk to someone like that? But I genuinely do appreciate you actually addressing my points (at least mostly)!

It's just a miss from my dozens of edits for these responses before I send them. To clarify, the "in my opinion" part should have been removed, I was shifting thought from it being an opinion, to thinking it's just objectively a better long term choice to take the +20 wis than the +20 sta, albeit a very minor difference, but technically a better choice nonetheless.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd rather have the extra mana while leveling, max level, and after torp. This is because the extra hps from the sta isn't going to help me achieve any of the prior any more efficiently than if I had the extra mana from +wis

What do you mean by "more efficiently"? Neither HP not Mana help in any way with killing efficiency, as increasing maximum anything won't make you kill faster over time. Other than stuff that literally makes you kill faster (eg. a better weapon or the JBB) the only way to kill faster is to reduce downtime (ie. get more AC, HP regen, Flowing Thought, or clickies that save you mana on buffing).

The only way I can see efficiency being relevant here is the efficiency of "not dying = leveling faster" (or not losing your camp, if you're farming). And again extra HP will keep you alive far more often than extra mana (at any level): 0 HP = death 100% of the time, 0 Mana = death far less than 100%.

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My comment on running oom and dying around the same time is very specific to prior to landing the first slow. If the mob is slowed, you win, unless you simply aren't geared to handle the duration of the fight of the slowed mob. You can kite 22 until slowed, so mana definitely plays a role. You don't need to engage it prior to it being slowed. If slow falls off because of reslow, mana is helpful because the only way it doesn't get reslowed is if you ran oom trying to reslow it. I can't see a scenario where I have tons of mana and reslow didn't land in time, unless it was user error and I went for reslows too late (this has happened of course, everyone spaces out sometimes).

Similar to 22 a WW dragon isn't gonna get face tanked the entire time while trying to slow it. You can make some space for at least a couple slow attempts during pull to kill spot, then torping self and trying more slows.

In crypt you can attempt to malo/root take small step back to get a slow attempt in, at least 1-2 times throughout the slow attempts while torping self. Less room to work with here but there is some flexibility. Even worst case tossing a chloroblast between waiting for slow gem to refresh to buy you some more hps between slow attempts can help render you oom around the time you run out of hps and die, but at least you get an extra slow attempt off.

If you can run away from something instead of getting hit, that's good, because it keeps you alive longer. If you can Torpor yourself to (also) stay alive longer, that's good too. We agree.

But if you kill a mob a hundred times (as you do when farming), the RNG turns on you sometimes. Your stats don't matter all the times things go smoothly: they matter for the times when the shit hits the fan, and no matter how much kiting, Torporing, whatever you do, you can't land a Slow and the mob keeps hurting you.

I'm arguing that it's those "shit hits the fan" cases which matter ... and I'll even grant that in X% of those cases, having even 500 extra HP still won't save you!

But overall, in the cases where your stats do matter, having extra "life points" is going to be the best way to "stay alive".

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I believe you're off base here. This shaman was not anywhere close to done with 99% of there shamaning, I completely disagree with that. I've listed and showed multiple times plenty of more upgrades to be had, that take significant time. I showed it was possible to cap stamina, while also continuing to acknowledge you realistically won't cap it for a long time, and that's okay because i'd prefer the extra mana from the +20 wis regardless, and because I think it's at least as, if not more, helpful than the hps from the sta, and it'll never go to waste.

Well, we'll just have to disagree about gearing a Shaman then I guess. Your "capped example" Magelo has <1k AC, only 50 MR, no instant clicky, no regen, etc. It's just my opinion, but I don't think it shows that a Barb casual is going to hit the cap anytime ...

... but even if it was ... we're quibbling over whether the Shaman will hit the cap for the last 99% their career, or just the last 97%.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have explained this multiple times. You just aren't reading.

75HP at level 60 will not help you survive a pre-slow crisis. If you are at 75HP and the mob still isn't slowed, you are dead because mobs hit for 140+ at level 60.

150-250 mana will generally not help you survive in a pre-slow crisis either. In both cases, it would come down to rare luck.

This is basically the "the whole argument is pointless" and ... I agree. I've agreed repeatedly throughout this thread that no one is going to actually notice a slight difference in their numbers in any direction.

But if we are theorcrafting, let's theorycraft, and I just don't agree with that quote: 75 HP absolutely can help you survive. Not a lot ... but a whole lot more than Mana will.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With that being said, Mana can help you survive solo encounters at level 60. I have been in situations where

Sure it can ... but HP will help you survive a lot more often. Like I keep saying, they're literally life points: without them you die 100% of the time. It's self-evident that going OOM does not equal death 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Realistically speaking you only need enough max HP in a solo encounter to safely pre-slow a monster most of the time.

Right, which is basically the same as saying "you only need HP for the hard part of the fight".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sure it can ... but HP will help you survive a lot more often. Like I keep saying, they're literally life points: without them you die 100% of the time. It's self-evident that going OOM does not equal death 100% of the time.

You keep saying it without actually listening to what other people are saying. No one is denying HP can help save your life. The problem is you vastly over-estimate 75HP. That much HP will basically never save you statistically at level 60 against an unslowed monster. Period. You will not notice any difference. I myself have taken off quite a few HP items from my equipment over the years (over 100HP), and I have seen 0 difference in how often I die.

In reality once you have enough Max HP to consistently clear the encounter, any more is pure waste. People who claim you need max HP just because it "can help" are generally just bad at the game and don't know how much life they need for an encounter.