most underpowered class in game?

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by Cen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

bard single target DPS when three-chanting is often overlooked. it's above average without the epic and with it's very high

Yep, I haven't been able to test this out thoroughly at max level/with epic yet, but others have reported 60+ dps from percussion dots alone and having been capable tanks in zones like the hole, seb, and skyfire, not excluding guardian wurms.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=198946

Originally Posted by Cherry23
Bards can not mezz or charm high end content, their haste and slow is not as good as a shaman or enchanter which almost evey high end group has one of... You can't use run speed indoors...

They have pulling ability and mana regen. Not much else. They are as bad as rangers at high end but fun when levelling

Originally Posted by falkun

With Ervaj's line, non-epic bards now have better haste than shaman (55 vs 50%). Also, epic'd bards have had better haste than shaman since Kunark (60%, 70% with ervaj). You could also argue their pulling ability is not as good as a monk's yet that's not strictly true either. And as Astuce pointed out, bard song DPS is respectable. Bard slow is also the single best snare in the game.

We also have unparalleled resist buffs, an unresistable debuff, group-wide DA, we've had eyeball pulling since Kunark (lol @ holgresh camp), among many other tools in our toolbox. Bards are still quite valuable in almost every raid composition: DS/epic proc for tank+spank, resists for resist fights, melee buffs for burn fights, mana batteries for endurance fights, etc.

If you think bard's are one-trick ponies, you do not understand the class.

[socialist]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yep, I haven't been able to test this out thoroughly at max level/with epic yet, but others have reported 60+ dps from percussion dots alone and having been capable tanks in zones like the hole, seb, and skyfire, not excluding guardian wurms.

Eh. Chants will tick for 56ish each w/epic, which is something like 30 DPS if you maintain three of them. That's if you can maintain them all, because while they do apply a resistance debuff, it's not exactly huge and plenty of things in the endgame will be immune to one or more of magic, fire and cold. Add the shitty melee on top and it might amount to 50 DPS. No, bards do not do real DPS. It's marginally higher than a paladin, and that's if the bard is doing nothing other than DPS, which is not a scenario that ever actually happens in reality. Ask a level 60 bard how big a percentage of his time is spent in DPS mode. He'll probably chuckle at you and recite a dirty limerick.

As far as tanking goes, bards are on par with rogues. They get marginally higher HP and they can wear plate, but their parry and dodge skills cap significantly lower, so it's about equal. If you take a fully ToV-geared bard to tank the Hole, I'm sure it'll probably be fine. Under real-life conditions, it's not a thing. A ToV-geared cleric could probably tank leveling content with a slower. Shamans tank guardian wurms all day and they don't even have any real defensive skills. This is not a measure of viability in conventional gameplay settings.

Maybe you can come up with some fantastical scenario where there's a group in which the bard is forced to be the tank, and then it's probably better than having the fucking wizard do it. But in reality, it's not a thing that happens with any sort of regularity, and it certainly isn't good. Bards are certainly useful in the one role that they inhabit, but they don't have the kind of versatility that lets them fill more than one role. They're pullers with mild CC and haste/resists/manasong. Stop pretending they're also DPS and tanks.

When was the last time you had a bard in your group and then invited another one, when it wasn't the only option available? Yeah? Yeah.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eh. Chants will tick for 56ish each w/epic, which is something like 30 DPS if you maintain three of them. That's if you can maintain them all, because while they do apply a resistance debuff, it's not exactly huge and plenty of things in the endgame will be immune to one or more of magic, fire and cold. Add the shitty melee on top and it might amount to 50 DPS. No, bards do not do real DPS. It's marginally higher than a paladin, and that's if the bard is doing nothing other than DPS, which is not a scenario that ever actually happens in reality. Ask a level 60 bard how big a percentage of his time is spent in DPS mode. He'll probably chuckle at you and recite a dirty limerick.

As far as tanking goes, bards are on par with rogues. They get marginally higher HP and they can wear plate, but their parry and dodge skills cap significantly lower, so it's about equal. If you take a fully ToV-geared bard to tank the Hole, I'm sure it'll probably be fine. Under real-life conditions, it's not a thing. A ToV-geared cleric could probably tank leveling content with a slower. Shamans tank guardian wurms all day and they don't even have any real defensive skills. This is not a measure of viability in conventional gameplay settings.

Maybe you can come up with some fantastical scenario where there's a group in which the bard is forced to be the tank, and then it's probably better than having the fucking wizard do it. But in reality, it's not a thing that happens with any sort of regularity, and it certainly isn't good. Bards are certainly useful in the one role that they inhabit, but they don't have the kind of versatility that lets them fill more than one role. They're pullers with mild CC and haste/resists/manasong. Stop pretending they're also DPS and tanks.

When was the last time you had a bard in your group and then invited another one, when it wasn't the only option available? Yeah? Yeah.

I like how in some ways you moved the goalpost to they suck because they can't do a certain role as well as another class of that role, when the whole conversation is around being a jack of all trades master of none

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The class was designed in spirit to have a bit of everything, but it's not as if anybody genuinely considers the bard to have any relevant melee capabilities, or tanking, or damage-dealing. Having a long list of ability types doesn't mean much if most of them are either weak as piss or serve no particular purpose in ordinary gameplay.

I mostly agree with you about the bard's role in a typical 6 man group.

I also think bards look more versatile if you consider the breadth of their "ordinary gameplay" instead of their role in a 6 man group.

I did quite a bit of time in those 6 man groups, but I also charm soloed multiple levels. And pbaoe kited a chunk, whether solo or small group or pling. And duoed, doing slow/haste/regen/melee; or with aoe dots and support for root rotting or cluster charming; or fear kiting.

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's if you can maintain them all, because while they do apply a resistance debuff, it's not exactly huge and plenty of things in the endgame will be immune to one or more of magic, fire and cold.

I haven't felt limited by specific immunities very often, but it's a bummer that non-lure damage spells are garbage against high level mobs in general (talking ToV, not Seb).

For raids it would be nice if Ervaj exceeded the haste cap to make it closer to justifiable to put a bard in a rogue group. And if songs went to a separate buff window to make it nicer to put a bard with a tank. And if mana pump were somehow less mind numbing.