most underpowered class in game?

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is simply that the distribution of good outdoor zones to good indoor zones is skewed heavily in favor of indoor zones.

It is, albeit the power of those types of spells tends to make those classes a bit self-selecting in terms of hanging out more where those spells work so that counter-skews the average some. Same as how on my Paladin I much favored hanging out in lower guk than sol-B because it's so much more convenient getting around with invis to undead than with calm.

As for Call of the Hero, it's so good I call it a character-killer: A straight majority of level 55+ magicians I know end up being parked in strategic locations due to that spell, no longer (or seldom) used for regular gameplay. If there's such a thing as a too-strong ability, that must be exhibit "A" because few other abilities kill characters in that manner.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is, albeit the power of those types of spells tends to make those classes a bit self-selecting in terms of hanging out more where those spells work so that counter-skews the average some. Same as how on my Paladin I much favored hanging out in lower guk than sol-B because it's so much more convenient getting around with invis to undead than with calm.

As for Call of the Hero, it's so good I call it a character-killer: A straight majority of level 55+ magicians I know end up being parked in strategic locations due to that spell, no longer (or seldom) used for regular gameplay. If there's such a thing as a too-strong ability, that must be exhibit "A" because few other abilities kill characters in that manner.

Danth

When figuring out generally the most underpowered class, we have to look beyond one-off abilities that are extremely useful in a handful of situations. If that was the criteria, then no class would be underpowered. Every class in the game has at least one situation where they are amazing. In the general context of "most underpowered", you need to look at the game as a whole to determine which classes struggle in general more than others due to their specific toolkit.

In general, Mages are used as CoTH bots as you describe. But it is not because CoTH is so good that it trumps a Mage's other abilities. It is because CoTH is one of the only good abilities they have. If Mages had other great abilities, you would see Mages being used in more situations. Unfortunately a big chunk of a Mage's toolkit is their pets, which cannot be used in many situations due to poor pathing. Another big chunk of a Mage's toolkit is summoned items. Most of those items are not useful on a server where the population knows everything, and good gear is easily accessible. Their third chunk of abilities are DDs, which are inferior to a Wizards. And their Mala is inferior to a Shamans. This is why on P99 Mages struggle. Most of their kit is either not used, or inferior to other classes. They also don't have much in the ways of CC, which further lowers their utility.

[Balimon]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When figuring out generally the most underpowered class, we have to look beyond one-off abilities that are extremely useful in a handful of situations. If that was the criteria, then no class would be underpowered. Every class in the game has at least one situation where they are amazing. In the general context of "most underpowered", you need to look at the game as a whole to determine which classes struggle in general more than others due to their specific toolkit.

In general, Mages are used as CoTH bots as you describe. But it is not because CoTH is so good that it trumps a Mage's other abilities. It is because CoTH is one of the only good abilities they have. If Mages had other great abilities, you would see Mages being used in more situations. Unfortunately a big chunk of a Mage's toolkit is their pets, which cannot be used in many situations due to poor pathing. Another big chunk of a Mage's toolkit is summoned items. Most of those items are not useful on a server where the population knows everything, and good gear is easily accessible. Their third chunk of abilities are DDs, which are inferior to a Wizards. And their Mala is inferior to a Shamans. This is why on P99 Mages struggle. Most of their kit is either not used, or inferior to other classes. They also don't have much in the ways of CC, which further lowers their utility.

You're forgetting Mod rods, they are more mana efficient than twitches. You need at least a couple of mages at raids to be mana batteries and to do train aways. Also mage DS is superior to druids because of the fire resist component.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Balimon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're forgetting Mod rods, they are more mana efficient than twitches. You need at least a couple of mages at raids to be mana batteries and to do train aways. Also mage DS is superior to druids because of the fire resist component.

I have mentioned mod rods plenty of times, but between this thread and the other one you may have missed it. Twitch is better than mod rods because mod rods are lore. The disruptive nature of having to eat one and then pick up another one makes it worse than twitch. Mod Rods are twitch support to help fill twitch gaps, not the other way around.

And I have said before Mages are an amazing raid class. But for most people raiding is a fraction of their total play time on a mage, so raiding is a lower consideration in my opinion. It's the same problem with COTH. It's an amazing spell, but not too useful outside of raids.

[Balimon]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have mentioned mod rods plenty of times, but between this thread and the other one you may have missed it. Twitch is better than mod rods because mod rods are lore. The disruptive nature of having to eat one and then pick up another one makes it worse than twitch. Mod Rods are twitch support to help fill twitch gaps, not the other way around.

And I have said before Mages are an amazing raid class. But for most people raiding is a fraction of their total play time on a mage, so raiding is a lower consideration in my opinion. It's the same problem with COTH. It's an amazing spell, but not too useful outside of raids.

I must have missed you talking about rods, I just saw the post where you were saying that mages don't bring anything besides COTH that others don't already do. Just pointing out that's an overstatement and there are things that only mages can do.

Your point about twitch vs rods may be true, I'm not sure, all I know is rods are 100% needed for raids. I can also build up a stockpile before the fight, I just don't think necros can pump out as much mana as I can through rods. I get that they are annoying, but that doesn't stop anyone from eating them up!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Balimon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I must have missed you talking about rods, I just saw the post where you were saying that mages don't bring anything besides COTH that others don't already do. Just pointing out that's an overstatement and there are things that only mages can do.

Your point about twitch vs rods may be true, I'm not sure, all I know is rods are 100% needed for raids. I can also build up a stockpile before the fight, I just don't think necros can pump out as much mana as I can through rods. I get that they are annoying, but that doesn't stop anyone from eating them up!

And don't get me wrong, I am not hating on Mages or discouraging people from playing them. I think they are great. I am simply pointing out the problems Mage's have on P99's timeline, which make them struggle more than other classes in general. All classes on P99 are good enough to play, and not at a point where they are bad or unplayable. That is one of the things I like about P99, no class is straight up broken to the point of being unusable.

Mod Rods are great in raids. No question. Twitches overall are better because the healer doesn't need to worry about Mod Rods running out, not being able to click on them properly to pick them up, having someone sit on them, etc. They are more of a gap filler for twitches. Mod Rods are used a lot less than twitches. From what I remember they are mostly used for the toughest fights like AoW. You aren't always able to build them up due to raid targets needing fast response time or camp movement. With mod rods being lore, it's tough to coordinate 60 raiders to all pick up a mod rod, move it, and place it every time.

[Balimon]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And don't get me wrong, I am not hating on Mages or discouraging people from playing them. I think they are great. I am simply pointing out the problems Mage's have on P99's timeline, which make them struggle more than other classes in general. All classes on P99 are good enough to play, and not at a point where they are bad or unplayable. That is one of the things I like about P99, no class is straight up broken to the point of being unusable.

Mod Rods are great in raids. No question. Twitches overall are better because the healer doesn't need to worry about Mod Rods running out, not being able to click on them properly to pick them up, having someone sit on them, etc. They are more of a gap filler for twitches. Mod Rods are used a lot less than twitches. From what I remember they are mostly used for the toughest fights like AoW. You aren't always able to build them up due to raid targets needing fast response time or camp movement. With mod rods being lore, it's tough to coordinate 60 raiders to all pick up a mod rod, move it, and place it every time.

Your analysis is pretty good, mages power wanes as the timeline progress that's for sure. There's a big difference between ToV and outside ToV raids as well as far how useful mages are. Inside ToV they are invaluable, every raid needs at least two, because of the constant cothing, the train away meta and for rods. I can't think of a single fight that we don't pile the rods down, even for trash depending on the situation, like HoT or Flurry drakes. I think people use rods more now then when you remember, especially on the Velious targets.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All classes on P99 are good enough to play, and not at a point where they are bad or unplayable. That is one of the things I like about P99, no class is straight up broken to the point of being unusable.

More than merely being able to function (a very low bar indeed), every class in the game has something it's genuinely good at. We might rank the classes as a sort of composite score for the entire game, but in truth few players use or want to use the entire game. Even the much-maligned wizard has jobs it's well-suited for and specific types of players i'd highly recommend it to; just the things it's best at might be more limited in scope than the strengths of what I'd call a stronger class. That's no problem at all if the player in question likes those specific jobs.

Function across all aspects of the game only becomes a problem when MMO-gamer minmaxer perception starts to creep in and you get people who think if you can't tank Vulak then you can't tank a Scrawny Gnoll, either. They're out there, although there are seemingly less of them on P1999 than there were in the original game.

Danth