On its dying breath, <Criot> cries enough to turn blue into Dice simulator 2022

[eisley]

Originally Posted by meathook [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I understand the roll for KT. But can someone explain how getting a 1 second head-start on Statue really helps? On Green, the first guy ahead of the pack is usually getting stunned/one-rounded by a Guardian or Vindi. In races I'm in I often purposely stand behind someone else so they get aggro on these mopbs first so I have a better chance of engaging Statue and surviving. It is never consistently the first guy off the line that gets a successful FTE on Statue because of all the KoS mobs I mentioned.

It doesn't. That's precisely why the 30 minute documentary about Stunningly ONLY shows his jumps off the line. He could give them a full second head start and still win pretty reliably. He's just really good at the mechanics of FTE races. I had never met the guy before in my life, yet the first time I heard him do a race training session I was impressed, he reminded me of Kelzaraz. He knows every little trick to every race, and he practices. A lot.

Since the beginning, this game has been dominated by a few. In early Velious, people like Kelzaraz, Yumyum, Fingerz, Brutillus got the majority of ToV FTE's. Some people are simply better than others. They care more. They work harder. It pays off.

Ultimately, the crux is that *even if Stunningly was using a script to get a 100ms jump*, it would be largely inconsequential in the grand scheme. The fact he gains 2000-5000ms more of a lead during the actual race is much more impressive in my opinion than his fast jumps. He reminds me of what Kelzaraz used to say - if you stop strafing for even a split second during a race, you failed. Point is, until you master the mechanics, you can't even truly understand why you're losing.

[SantagarBrax]

Originally Posted by eisley [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It doesn't. That's precisely why the 30 minute documentary about Stunningly ONLY shows his jumps off the line. He could give them a full second head start and still win pretty reliably. He's just really good at the mechanics of FTE races. I had never met the guy before in my life, yet the first time I heard him do a race training session I was impressed, he reminded me of Kelzaraz. He knows every little trick to every race, and he practices. A lot.

Since the beginning, this game has been dominated by a few. In early Velious, people like Kelzaraz, Yumyum, Fingerz, Brutillus got the majority of ToV FTE's. Some people are simply better than others. They care more. They work harder. It pays off.

Ultimately, the crux is that *even if Stunningly was using a script to get a 100ms jump*, it would be largely inconsequential in the grand scheme. The fact he gains 2000-5000ms more of a lead during the actual race is much more impressive in my opinion than his fast jumps. He reminds me of what Kelzaraz used to say - if you stop strafing for even a split second during a race, you failed. Point is, until you master the mechanics, you can't even truly understand why you're losing.

An excellent observation which broadens the story into perspective. It's a testament towards the true goal of most of these forum posters attempting a short story conviction rather than any meaningful thought towards the entire saga.

Haven't we learned that appeasement never works? How many times do we have to continue down the same trodden path?

Insanity

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by eisley [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He could give them a full second head start and still win pretty reliably. He's just really good at the mechanics of FTE races. I had never met the guy before in my life, yet the first time I heard him do a race training session I was impressed, he reminded me of Kelzaraz. He knows every little trick to every race, and he practices. A lot.

There must be old recordings that show him practicing these runs on a private server, which could be uploaded for public viewing to substantiate these claims.

Originally Posted by eisley [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ultimately, the crux is that *even if Stunningly was using a script to get a 100ms jump*, it would be largely inconsequential in the grand scheme. The fact he gains 2000-5000ms more of a lead during the actual race is much more impressive in my opinion than his fast jumps. He reminds me of what Kelzaraz used to say - if you stop strafing for even a split second during a race, you failed. Point is, until you master the mechanics, you can't even truly understand why you're losing.

If the player was willing to cheat in order to gain an "inconsequential" advantage, it follows then that they would also be using the same or similar method throughout the race wherever possible to secure FTE, otherwise the risk wouldn't be worth the reward. If someone has already committed to breaking the rules, risking everything, they will benefit from doing so as much as possible, which seems to be the case overall with just how many FTEs were had. Who knows though? A few less FTEs here and there, and maybe nobody would have suspected anything.

Originally Posted by eisley [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact he gains 2000-5000ms more of a lead during the actual race is much more impressive in my opinion than his fast jumps.

More questionable now than impressive. Another video focusing on this portion of the race would have been great, but unlikely now that it isn't necessary given the change.

[Vianna]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There must be old recordings that show him practicing these runs on a private server, which could be uploaded for public viewing to substantiate these claims.



If the player was willing to cheat in order to gain an "inconsequential" advantage, it follows then that they would also be using the same or similar method throughout the race wherever possible to secure FTE, otherwise the risk wouldn't be worth the reward. If someone has already committed to breaking the rules, risking everything, they will benefit from doing so as much as possible, which seems to be the case overall with just how many FTEs were had. Who knows though? A few less FTEs here and there, and maybe nobody would have suspected anything.


Typical dipshit response right here. He beat me so you therefor should provide proof of practice and everything he does....What a moron.
More questionable now than impressive. Another video focusing on this portion of the race would have been great, but unlikely now that it isn't necessary given the change.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There must be old recordings that show him practicing these runs on a private server, which could be uploaded for public viewing to substantiate these claims.



If the player was willing to cheat in order to gain an "inconsequential" advantage, it follows then that they would also be using the same or similar method throughout the race wherever possible to secure FTE, otherwise the risk wouldn't be worth the reward. If someone has already committed to breaking the rules, risking everything, they will benefit from doing so as much as possible, which seems to be the case overall with just how many FTEs were had. Who knows though? A few less FTEs here and there, and maybe nobody would have suspected anything.



More questionable now than impressive. Another video focusing on this portion of the race would have been great, but unlikely now that it isn't necessary given the change.

Also the guy who wrote that comment’s argument is essentially “yeah we cheated but it only gives us a slight advantage so people shouldn’t be upset about it”

Lol

[eisley]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the player was willing to cheat in order to gain an "inconsequential" advantage, it follows then that they would also be using the same or similar method throughout the race wherever possible to secure FTE, otherwise the risk wouldn't be worth the reward. If someone has already committed to breaking the rules, risking everything, they will benefit from doing so as much as possible, which seems to be the case overall with just how many FTEs were had. Who knows though? A few less FTEs here and there, and maybe nobody would have suspected anything.

To be clear, are you suggesting he is scripting the *entire* race? On a race where you are frequently stunned, dodge roamers, and juke stutter step, and have to macro target the end to wand Statue? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

I'm sure there's videos of the practice server races. I spent a few hours racing him and others myself personally. He didn't win an overwhelming amount of times. I even won once and I hadn't played in 4 years. Not only that, but Venice ended up beating him for all-time best time (87 sec?).

If you've spent time practicing the Statue race, you know it's won or lost on the two rocks, and the turns. The faster you turn, the faster you're back to strafing. So swinging the mouse instantly into the *right position* is essential. Not only that, people who mess up the rocks, or Levitating to the ledge aren't even competitive. There's so many other things you can mess up too, like being Not An Ogre (grats on stuns), DA'ing thru Vindi then not clicking it off to Wand Statue, not running 60fps and failing to Levitate the arena ledge, not strafing properly (this is #1 reason), not macro targetting statue, or failing the door opening, and probably like 10 other things I'm forgetting.

Chooch's Youtube shows a lot of old Awakened FTE races. You'll notice that I (Chocomao) start in the lead pretty often. This is because my roommate (Yumyum) was our primary facetracker, and so I'd hear him screaming right next to me, instead of having to wait for screenshare lag or someone in voice chat. You can even see Chooch's slowing to LET me get in the lead sometimes. Despite this, I didn't get many FTE's. Being in the lead wasn't an advantage for anything other than Eashen, Ikatiar, Aary, etc. So yeah, I got a lot of those, but I only ever got one Vulak, and one or two triplets or doubles. I even ended up switching to Bard to do first group DA because I was almost guaranteed to be in the lead up until around PoM zone-in, but this allowed the rest of the group to save idols, and 2nd bard DA to hold off until my idol was about to drop, which allowed us to dominate the deep dragons. Hell, we even had Yumyum target the Vulak drake roamer on the tracker so we could spam /assist Loststalker as approaching Vulak and use Slowstone Ambers 250 range, and we nearly got 30 Vulaks in a row. It was a team effort. We practiced. We worked as a team. It paid off.

Point is, there's a lot more to FTE races than the jump off the line. It's so reductive that I'm surprised people are so up in arms over this. When examining race videos back when I was very active, we didn't even really put much thought into the jump off the line. Statue is a 90 sec race, ToV goes beyond 2 minute races. (well, used to). 100ms of a 90,000ms race. You can lose 100ms by failing to strafe for half a second.

[Croco]

Originally Posted by eisley [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Point is, there's a lot more to FTE races than the jump off the line. It's so reductive that I'm surprised people are so up in arms over this. When examining race videos back when I was very active, we didn't even really put much thought into the jump off the line. Statue is a 90 sec race, ToV goes beyond 2 minute races. (well, used to). 100ms of a 90,000ms race. You can lose 100ms by failing to strafe for half a second.

How much time do you lose when you're not first off the line and you spend the entirety of the race bumping into other racers that aren't cheating? Just ballpark is good.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by eisley [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To be clear, are you suggesting he is scripting the *entire* race? On a race where you are frequently stunned, dodge roamers, and juke stutter step, and have to macro target the end to wand Statue?

If getting off the line ASAP is of no consequence whatsoever, than why would anyone use scripting unless there was more to the script than that alone? It was all but confirmed that a script was being used; removing the how-to videos only underscored what everyone took away from the mini documentary. If someone is willing to cheat for what you consider to be a negligible amount of time, what would be the purpose, considering they are as good as you claim? Also, there are other cases where human error revealed scripting on this project, with unintended and embarrassing outcomes. It's not as though these accusations came out of left field.

Originally Posted by eisley [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't want to put words in your mouth.

And my teeth appreciate that.

Originally Posted by eisley [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sure there's videos of the practice server races. I spent a few hours racing him and others myself personally. He didn't win an overwhelming amount of times. I even won once and I hadn't played in 4 years. Not only that, but Venice ended up beating him for all-time best time (87 sec?).

Players who are suspected of two-boxing are put through a series of tests on the spot. It would be interesting to see if he could demonstrate the same reaction times in different settings with different random numbers being used as the green light. If I was in Vanquish, and felt that their was nothing suspicious about those numbers, that would take priority over creating antagonistic RNF threads.

Originally Posted by eisley [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you've spent time practicing the Statue race, you know it's won or lost on the two rocks, and the turns. The faster you turn, the faster you're back to strafing. So swinging the mouse instantly into the *right position* is essential. Not only that, people who mess up the rocks, or Levitating to the ledge aren't even competitive. There's so many other things you can mess up too, like being Not An Ogre (grats on stuns), DA'ing thru Vindi then not clicking it off to Wand Statue, not running 60fps and failing to Levitate the arena ledge, not strafing properly (this is #1 reason), not macro targetting statue, or failing the door opening, and probably like 10 other things I'm forgetting.

KT instead of Statue, but yes I got the gist and realized it was pointless because my lev had less and less buoyancy for every player involved; in other words, my best times were only possible in practice. If the 30 minute documentary is ridiculous to you, which seems likely since that's how it was described, than consider how the actual races look from an outsider's perspective. And the wall staring. And the pre-parked alt armies. That someone had to compile that much evidence together rather than play the actual game, worry-free, says something about the state of the game.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

says something about the state of the game.

Or rather the community, though MMOs are as much about both.

[eisley]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If getting off the line ASAP is of no consequence whatsoever, than why would anyone use scripting unless there was more to the script than that alone?

Well, that's kind of my point for why I don't believe he's cheating. When I practiced with him, he certainly didn't win every jump, and I doubt he does on live either, but admittedly I don't raid lately.

For a script to work for the full race, it'd have to be from beginning to end to time up properly, and if that WERE the case, that video could've been much more convincing by showing the actual races, not the jumps. If he's consistently doing a perfect 90 sec race, the precise angles, you could bind sight and overlay them and there wouldn't be a shred of doubt.

I also don't think he's cheating because he's really good, knowledgable, and practices a lot. In my experience, these are not things cheaters do. Why spend hundreds of hours practicing a race if you're going to script it? Why host guild training sessions and be able to answer every question regarding every race and know every trick unless he's just... good?

The video also hinges on him having 108 ping. I spoke to him and he said his usual ping is much lower. Without the 108, his jumps drop from "inhuman" to "top 1%". Another big factor is level of attention - I used to keep my hand on the mouse, autorun bound to middle click, and use that to jump, then swap to W (which was bound to both Forward and Strafe Left). Obviously GINA is a factor too. The sound trigger you use matters.

Also, there are other cases where human error revealed scripting on this project, with unintended and embarrassing outcomes. It's not as though these accusations came out of left field.

Are there any of Stunningly doing this? I mean, I don't doubt people can script autorun. But I do not believe people are scripting full races and I do not believe scripted jumps matter much. Back when you HAD to use an autoclicker to win Scout Cherisa, it made sense to change it, because you simply had no chance otherwise. Remove the /random, and scripted jumps aren't even a problem anymore.

Sure, I agree that someone who cheats will go to any length. But isn't it curious how this person who gets a lot of FTE's is a really good player who practices and studies a lot? It's just so strange, the person who works the hardest to get better, is the best.

Players who are suspected of two-boxing are put through a series of tests on the spot. It would be interesting to see if he could demonstrate the same reaction times in different settings with different random numbers being used as the green light. If I was in Vanquish, and felt that their was nothing suspicious about those numbers, that would take priority over creating antagonistic RNF threads.

I'm not opposed to this, but I don't think you can glean much from it. Different numbers wouldn't matter though, as everyone uses GINA, which is legal. I don't support cheating, even if they're my guildmates or friends. I've been accused of cheating and RMT and other garbage a lot in this game, despite the lack of proof. I'm sympathetic to false accusations.

Is Stunningly truly getting first jump on every single Statue? (Or was, I guess) If that's the case, that does change things and the video should've mentioned it.

That someone had to compile that much evidence together rather than play the actual game, worry-free, says something about the state of the game.

Definitely agree with you here. This whole thing is a little fascinating to me as a mostly-outsider because I used to get first jump off the line frequently due to reasons explained above and was accused of cheating a few times.

However, I don't know if the problem is that people today are more inclined to spend 2 months making a documentary instead of spending those 2 months practicing. I don't know if Riot has a practice server or how much they spend there.

p99 is a strange hobby, sure. But racing can be a lot of fun for some people. NToV races were my favorite part of the game. I did a lot of tracking too. The competition, and contributing to the guilds success are what drove me. Is it really THAT hard to believe someone is just really good?

Back in 2016, Kelzaraz got 5 of 6 Vulak FTE's. That was the first time I saw people posting about scripting. Kelz recorded most of them, and the most interesting thing I took away from them were that the first person off the line didn't even survive to Vulak a single time.