It's official: Riot is done.

[xdrcfrx]

Originally Posted by Twochain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tracker FTE is an outdated relic of days gone by. However, a GM wouldn't just be able to say "Tracker FTE concedes are no longer a thing" because than suddenly the Meta is camp your entire raid at targets. So then the change would become wordy, and have a bunch of different stipulations, and ends up being a hassle.

Maybe, If you accidentally FTE a mob, where it would have no obvious benefit to your guild to FTE at that time, you may call accidental and wipe it clean. But already we're operating on good faith.. so it's a little complicated.


Tracker FTE concedes are really fuckin dumb though. Imagine losing a mob for your whole guild because you forgot where your toon was camped out at last week.

don't forget where your toons are camped out, then. tracker FTE is a good rule because it's a bright line test which is easy to implement and enforce: were you over the race line when the mob spawned, and got FTE? So sad too bad, you must concede. I'm sure that if we blurred that line, we wouldn't start to see frequent Vanq. "accidental" tracker FTE's that interrupt other guilds going for mobs.

Along the same lines, trying to remove the 2 tracker limit is dumb, because it turns any coth required raid (e.g.: a lot of encounters) into a contest of who can park the most mages. Vanq. already using 3 mages at Vulak for several weeks running, i guess it's obvious why you'd want this: because you assess that you'd be able to park more mages and/or counting to 2 is vry hrd.

You mention "good faith" but from where I sit, pretty much no one puts any stock in Vanq. operating in good faith - your leaders and other public facing people frequently demonstrate that you have none. To this point - yes, people are skeptical and/or against the idea because of who proposed it. Detoxx has a long history of being awful, and Vanq. has spent the last year demonstrating repeatedly that it will not operate in good faith.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by xdrcfrx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You mention "good faith" but from where I sit, pretty much no one puts any stock in Vanq. operating in good faith - your leaders and other public facing people frequently demonstrate that you have none. To this point - yes, people are skeptical and/or against the idea because of who proposed it. Detoxx has a long history of being awful, and Vanq. has spent the last year demonstrating repeatedly that it will not operate in good faith.

You must be a KRIOT member because all the shit they post in the UN shows that this is not specific to Vanquish.

Juicebox literally cannot type a post without being passive aggressive.

Arcler is types in lies and circles to get his way.

Why the fuck would you call out Detoxx specifically unless you're sucking Juicebox and Arcler dick?

[xdrcfrx]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You must be a KRIOT member because all the shit they post in the UN shows that this is not specific to Vanquish.

Juicebox literally cannot type a post without being passive aggressive.

Arcler is types in lies and circles to get his way.

Why the fuck would you call out Detoxx specifically unless you're sucking Juicebox and Arcler dick?

because, you dullard, it was detoxx that suggested removing the tracker FTE rules in the UN like 3 days ago, and also detoxx who called someone else's idea in this very thread "dumb."

try to keep up.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by xdrcfrx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

because, you dullard, it was detoxx that suggested removing the tracker FTE rules in the UN like 3 days ago, and also detoxx who called someone else's idea in this very thread "dumb."

try to keep up.

This is exactly how KRIOT "diplomacy" works. Thank you for demonstrating.

[xdrcfrx]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is exactly how KRIOT "diplomacy" works. Thank you for demonstrating.

I have lots of great conversations with plenty vanq. people. you've earned the scorn, though.

[dk0]

Originally Posted by xdrcfrx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

don't forget where your toons are camped out, then. tracker FTE is a good rule because it's a bright line test which is easy to implement and enforce: were you over the race line when the mob spawned, and got FTE? So sad too bad, you must concede. I'm sure that if we blurred that line, we wouldn't start to see frequent Vanq. "accidental" tracker FTE's that interrupt other guilds going for mobs.

Along the same lines, trying to remove the 2 tracker limit is dumb, because it turns any coth required raid (e.g.: a lot of encounters) into a contest of who can park the most mages. Vanq. already using 3 mages at Vulak for several weeks running, i guess it's obvious why you'd want this: because you assess that you'd be able to park more mages and/or counting to 2 is vry hrd.

I'm still really curious about this and I'm not sure I'm clear on why you think the rule is a good thing to have. You mention being over the line and getting FTE-- you're allowed to have trackers over the line. What is the perceived benefit of getting tracker FTE? Why would any guild want that?

The only thing I landed on was what you said--intentionally interfering with another guild's engage. But that's pretty nonsensical and trivial to handle. FTE from a tracker lasts all of half a second while a mage gets one-shotted, and anything that would blatantly interfere with a team's engage would mean a competing raid force is there with substantial fraps. At that point it's literally no different from having any rando member interfere with the engage. What am I missing?

[xdrcfrx]

Originally Posted by dk0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm still really curious about this and I'm not sure I'm clear on why you think the rule is a good thing to have. You mention being over the line and getting FTE-- you're allowed to have trackers over the line. What is the perceived benefit of getting tracker FTE? Why would any guild want that?

The only thing I landed on was what you said--intentionally interfering with another guild's engage. But that's pretty nonsensical and trivial to handle. FTE from a tracker lasts all of half a second while a mage gets one-shotted, and anything that would blatantly interfere with a team's engage would mean a competing raid force is there with substantial fraps. At that point it's literally no different from having any rando member interfere with the engage. What am I missing?

"oops my tracker got FTE and pulled that sev/gore/other pulled mob away from where it was, and then instead of losing the engage it just became a total mess! who would have thought it could happen. aww shucks."

why would you want to open up this can of worms? right now, it's a very clear and easy to apply rule. anything you replace it with is going to be more difficult to apply. certainly the history of this server, and especially it's current M.O., suggests that nuanced rules which require detailed analysis will only be the source of conflict. ambiguity = bad.

it's already the case that people argue that anything you do during the course of an FTE doesn't matter, if a new FTE goes out. doing away with tracker FTE almost certain to result in the following: tracker gets FTE; DA's and/or bumps the mob; caps out or dies; new member of same guild gets fresh FTE after mob has been significantly affected; that guild kills mob, argues that it's initial tracker FTE is meaningless because of subsequent yellow text.

you say you don't like the lawyerquesting? then stop trying to do away with the simple rules that are easy to enforce.

[dk0]

Originally Posted by xdrcfrx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"oops my tracker got FTE and pulled that sev/gore/other pulled mob away from where it was, and then instead of losing the engage it just became a total mess! who would have thought it could happen. aww shucks."

why would you want to open up this can of worms? right now, it's a very clear and easy to apply rule. anything you replace it with is going to be more difficult to apply. certainly the history of this server, and especially it's current M.O., suggests that nuanced rules which require detailed analysis will only be the source of conflict. ambiguity = bad.

it's already the case that people argue that anything you do during the course of an FTE doesn't matter, if a new FTE goes out. doing away with tracker FTE almost certain to result in the following: tracker gets FTE; DA's and/or bumps the mob; caps out or dies; new member of same guild gets fresh FTE after mob has been significantly affected; that guild kills mob, argues that it's initial tracker FTE is meaningless because of subsequent yellow text.

you say you don't like the lawyerquesting? then stop trying to do away with the simple rules that are easy to enforce.

Appreciate the response, though I think you may be confusing me with someone else, I've not made any comments about lawyerquesting.

My point is that there are already rules in place that prevent the behavior you're describing. Getting rid of tracker FTE is just the immediate concession portion of the tracker ruleset. They still cannot do literally anything else otherwise it's a concede. Think of it this way: what if the tracker coth'd a single person up who then did the things you describe? How is that any different? If the chaos you're describing were to suddenly happen, why isn't it happening now?

This is RNF so I presume we'll never agree here, but there's no "can of worms" to open. You could drop this rule without any changes to behavior.

[xdrcfrx]

Originally Posted by dk0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Appreciate the response, though I think you may be confusing me with someone else, I've not made any comments about lawyerquesting.

My point is that there are already rules in place that prevent the behavior you're describing. Getting rid of tracker FTE is just the immediate concession portion of the tracker ruleset. They still cannot do literally anything else otherwise it's a concede. Think of it this way: what if the tracker coth'd a single person up who then did the things you describe? How is that any different? If the chaos you're describing were to suddenly happen, why isn't it happening now?

This is RNF so I presume we'll never agree here, but there's no "can of worms" to open. You could drop this rule without any changes to behavior.

why wouldn't they do any of the things, in the absence of a rule requiring immediate concession? that's the only thing discouraging it now, anyways. the underlying point is that as currently implemented, this rule is easy to apply. making it less easy to apply is only going to invite more opportunities for conflict and argument. dropping the rule would just make an already bad atmosphere even worse.

I meant "you" in the general sense, i guess, as opposed to you specifically. apologies if my meaning wasn't clear.

[dk0]

Originally Posted by xdrcfrx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

why wouldn't they do any of the things, in the absence of a rule requiring immediate concession?

Because there already exist rules that prevent that behavior and lead to concession. You can easily get around tracker FTE by having a tracker coth up a member and then do these exact same things. But that's not happening, because there are already rules that prevent it. Tracker FTE does nothing to prevent any unwanted behavior that isn't already addressed by a different rule, which makes it unnecessary.

Anyway, never in the history of RNF has someone's perspective actually been changed, and I'm not interested in devolving this convo into whatever is happening in the rest of this ridiculous thread, so I assume this is where we'll just disagree. Appreciate you sharing your view.