[Elf Laywer Quest] FoW vs Seal Team

[Aeaolena]

Originally Posted by Domo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So both guilds had a race on 1 or 2 dragonz going on and my guild ST fucked up a pull and FoW died to it. We did together the CR, my guild conceded, and we moved on, few min later an afk rogue from ST came back from afk and caused by mistake another wipe on FoW to which my guild extended the conced. But FoW dont believe it and suing us to get more. And now GM judges have to check the evidence and decide what they do with it.

Super Important Context - Seal Team did not concede on the first train, as is expected in situations like this. You can see the screenshot clarifying that it wasn't a concede, in the official petition document. Along with not conceding being a pattern of behavior, as FW saw the weeks before.

Also Important Context - The second train was advantageous to Seal Team, as it ultimately slowed down our force / prevented us from effectively engaging other targets.

Also Important to Note - Seal Team has made Kingdom (I think? or maybe Ven in the past?) concede a VS after Seal Team *won* at VS, after it was discovered a Kingdom or Venerate enchanter freaked out and had fat-finger tashed VS. Kingdom/Ven then had to take responsibility for the accidental of their member, because Seal Team demanded they do so even though it didn't even cost them the mob in question.

Most important Context - The two mob concede happened in shout **much later**, after Seal Team scored a Jorellag kill. A kill they didn't have to compete against FW for.



Sorry for the long post - but context is pretty important.

This was the third time, as I understand it - that this has happened to us from Seal Team. We are a semi-casual guild with families and goofballs, but when we do compete for targets - we want to have that competition be fair. This ToV situation and standard as is - is getting a little out of hand. It's not okay.

[Aeaolena]

Also, Congrats to you guys on Server first AoW. That's a hard fight.

[beaon]

Certainly no bias at all in the recounting of events here. The "context" as is shared. Seal team absolutely nefariously intended to cause repeat harm to their opposition. There simply is no other explanation! Just impossible to think of any other possible explanation. It just isn't possible for it to be any other way! The full context, recounting of events, not leaving anything out shows it! Seal team must dominate its opposition into the ground, repeatedly. Sarcasm aside...

People want "competition" and "Fairness" but struggle with these concepts given the mechanics the game provides. If someone botches a pull in absence of competition its just a botched pull. No one cares. If that same person botches their pull over a competing and unfortunately positioned raid force all of the sudden its a nefarious, pointed, tactical train, a personal attack on your person that shall not go unpunished and I'll see you in elf court and in the RnF trashcan!

Several hours after the event, maybe a full day later, FoW asked ST to concede the entire zone of ToV for 7 days. We then all sit around scratching our head wondering why everyone is so "toxic".

Thanks for the kind words on AOW. It was an amazing moment.

[Convict]

Originally Posted by beaon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Certainly no bias at all in the recounting of events here. The "context" as is shared. Seal team absolutely nefariously intended to cause repeat harm to their opposition. There simply is no other explanation! Just impossible to think of any other possible explanation. It just isn't possible for it to be any other way! The full context, recounting of events, not leaving anything out shows it! Seal team must dominate its opposition into the ground, repeatedly. Sarcasm aside...

I am not in either guild, but obviously your sarcastic post is anticipated when taken into account your POV and perception of events given you are in said guild in question. Raiding on blue was absolutely 100% no different as this exact same stuff happened there.

The problem with your logic here is that "intention" never mattered. All that mattered was the result of the action committed. It sounds like the result was that FoW got completely fucked over by ST regardless if ST "intended" to cause such harm or not, and hopefully the punishment will reflect that.

Its funny to me though that the top guild always behaves the same, regardless of who is in that position. When they fuck up and accidently train a competing guild somehow they always find a way to play victim and find some convoluted way to spin the blame on the actual victim. But when the opposite happens, and the top guild is trained or literally anything happens, even when it doesn't affect the outcome and the top guild still ends up with the kill, they throw the whole fucking lawyerquest book at their competition's face.

"Intention" should not be factored into a GM decision, because it cannot be proven, and that's why ST will try to use it the best they can to spin spin spin, baby! "We didn't intend to train them! It was one single afk rogue who screwed up, it would be stupid to punish us for that!"... "Kingdom intended to wipe us when that one single enchanter screwed up and tried to tash VS, and even though it didn't, and we still got the kill and the loot, they should be punished anyways".

You should be able to see where this becomes a problem. Because if not, you are already drunk off the cool aid.

[beaon]

Originally Posted by Convict [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem with your logic here is that "intention" never mattered. All that mattered was the result of the action committed.

That is right. That is how it should be. That is what "my logic" is trying to argue, perhaps poorly.

Originally Posted by Convict [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It sounds like the result was that FoW got completely fucked over by ST regardless if ST "intended" to cause such harm or not, and hopefully the punishment will reflect that.

I mean FoW got the dragon AND 2 weeks of concessions from ST on 2 dragons. That is potentially 6x dragons. FWIW they positioned their raid force leaving very little margin of error for competing bodies. They sat under the nose of the encounter. IDk if that is strategic preference or what but that is their prerogative. The fact that you just assumed ST got the kill and didn't bow out immediately shows the bias in the discussion.

For two weeks 3 different guilds have been exchanging trains with each other on this specific spot. You only saw petitions from one of them.

Originally Posted by Convict [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its funny to me though that the top guild always behaves the same, regardless of who is in that position.

This might speak to more of your perception of things. Thank god staff was there and watched the whole thing. They know it wasn't nefarious. Staff threw out the petition already.

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Originally Posted by Convict [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When they fuck up and accidently train a competing guild somehow they always find a way to play victim

I think it is reasonable for people to be annoyed when they are accused of things presented in partial truths. Part of my sarcasm you previously noted was due to major chunks of the story being left out. I don't think it was intentional by these folk here I just think folk sometimes get caught up in the moment or become misinformed. Sometimes willfully idk. My sarcasm is there because it happens literally every time. Seal Team gets a lot of attention but FWIW its not always other guilds vs Seal Team. Guilds on p99 in general treat each other poorly. People are more concerned with postulating, being right, being vindictive, and getting free concessions. (And not always against ST)

Originally Posted by Convict [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and find some convoluted way to spin the blame on the actual victim.

That is an unfortunate perception you have. ST screwed up and owned it. No one in ST leadership is saying this is their fault. I am sure people have their opinions, as do I, in how FoW positions their raid force for this specific encounter, but that isn't what this is about. I never played on Blue but my experience in ST has shown that the server has very unhealthy misconceptions between other guilds. Not just with the top guild. But if people think that after almost a decade of p99 that the top guild is somehow always the asshole then maybe the perception and understanding of what is going on might be skewed.

Originally Posted by Convict [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But when the opposite happens, and the top guild is trained or literally anything happens, even when it doesn't affect the outcome and the top guild still ends up with the kill,

Well the top guild didn't get the kill AND ST didn't file a petition until AFTER FoW filed theirs. I assume ST will drop their petition now that staff has dismissed FOW's.

Originally Posted by Convict [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Intention" should not be factored into a GM decision, because it cannot be proven,

I agree but I am speaking more in the context of our community and how we address each other. There is a vindictive tone here. I know folk have been wronged in the past and even some petition rulings have gone poorly which have created lasting grudges. I am challenging us to work away from that.

Originally Posted by Convict [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and that's why ST will try to use it the best they can to spin spin spin, baby!

If you think only the "top guild" is spinning stuff and no one else you might be part of the problem.

Originally Posted by Convict [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You should be able to see where this becomes a problem. Because if not, you are already drunk off the cool aid.

Either we treat each other like peers and colleagues on a shared server or we speak past each other, accuse each other, constantly and routinely assume the worst in each other. We just turn into blue.

[hannahgrams]

most messed up part is it wasnt even ST it was some lvl 5 half elf bard named davidslash

[Robot]

Originally Posted by hannahgrams [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

most messed up part is it wasnt even ST it was some lvl 5 half elf bard named davidslash

sounds like a gang member tbh xD