Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm glad you brought this up.

Troll = (42 hp standing | 48 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+12 standing | +18 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Ogre (34 hp standing | 37 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+4 standing | +7 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Let's go back to my Canni 4 example


With the above proposed regen per tick.
Troll - 106 HP Canni 4 standing per tick
Ogre - 114 HP Canni 4 standing per tick

Yes, pre-Torpor Trolls get a nice boost I never denied that. Post Torpor, the boost is barely noticeable.

Troll = 344 max regeneration with Torpor(you forgot about +2 from bear form!).
Ogre = 336 max regeneration with Torpor.

8 HP regeneration is 2.4% of 336. Not a big boost. Pre-Torpor, the difference is 22%, which is pretty damn good.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What spawns is a snare able to split that a non-snare cannot split? Never heard of this. I 100% agree the snare neck can pair with blind, but it is hardly usable in a dangerous dungeon. The snare % is so low the mob will still travel unhealthy distances in a relatively quick amount of time. I do a lot of fear kiting on my Shadowknight, so I know a thing or two about the dos and don'ts of fear kiting in tight spaces.

Say a room has 3 pretty tough enemies and you don't like your chances trying take them on all at once. You target 1 enemy you don't want to kill first. Root him. Now the other 2 rush you, now you root one of the other ones you don't want to fight first, leaving you with the one you want to kill. Now you pull tht one back a bit away from the others you have rooted, snare him and immediately camp out. If you have a decent computer/HD you should be able to log back in to grab the snared one without aggroing the others.


Edit: will only be possible during velious timeline due to snare/root stacking.

As far as fear kiting goes, SKs don't have anywhere near the effective killing power of shaman, so shaman can more easily "make a little more elbow room" for himself.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, pre-Torpor Trolls get a nice boost I never denied that. Post Torpor, the boost is barely noticeable.

Troll = 344 max regeneration with Torpor(you forgot about +2 from bear form!).
Ogre = 336 max regeneration with Torpor.

8 HP regeneration is 2.4% of 336. Not a big boost. Pre-Torpor, the difference is 22%, which is pretty damn good.

I didn't want to bring up form of the great bear because barbarian polar bear is too cool.
But yes I did 'forget' to add it.

Allow me to paraphrase what you said earlier in the topic "Shaman won't have torpor up 100% of the time" Meaning that racial regen is getting you bigger hp ticks while it's down.
troll even gets racial regen ticks while frontal bashed stunned, lol.

I'll even admit when I solo ayillish my torpor uptime hovers around 94-96% uptime. And I do suffer hp/mana loss because it's not up 100% of the time. but that racial regen helps keep me in the green when it goes down by mistake or on purpose. getting hit for 200+ damage i'll take any mitigation I can against that. Fully self buffed included in that damage number.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Say a room has 3 pretty tough enemies and you don't like your chances trying take them on all at once. You target 1 enemy you don't want to kill first. Root him. Now the other 2 rush you, now you root one of the other ones you don't want to fight first, leaving you with the one you want to kill. Now you pull tht one back a bit away from the others you have rooted, snare him and immediately camp out. If you have a decent computer/HD you should be able to log back in to grab the snared one without aggroing the others.

As far as fear kiting goes, SKs don't have anywhere near the effective killing power of shaman, so shaman can more easily "make a little more elbow room" for himself.

Ah I see what you are saying. This wouldn't work with the snare neck. It only lasts 6 ticks. Camping is also 6 ticks. Snare will literally wear off the second you camp out. The mob will start pathing back immediately. If you can log out/in that fast, root would work exactly the same. You root the mob, camp out, come back in as it starts pathing back.

I understand SK's cant kill as fast, but SK's can do a lot more shenanigans in cramped spaces, due to clickies and better snares. Clinging Darkness is a terrible snare, and the mob still runs pretty fast for an area where you have little wiggle room.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah I see what you are saying. This wouldn't work with the snare neck. It only lasts 6 ticks. Camping is also 6 ticks. Snare will literally wear off the second you camp out. The mob will start pathing back immediately. If you can log out/in that fast, root would work exactly the same. You root the mob, camp out, come back in as it starts pathing back.

camping is 30 seconds, the snare is 36-41 seconds long depending on when it lands.

Edit: and root instantly breaks on zoning/camping because it has variable duration. You could actually do it with root but you would need a really large runway to pull it off, which you often won't have in dungeons.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I understand SK's cant kill as fast, but SK's can do a lot more shenanigans in cramped spaces, due to clickies and better snares. Clinging Darkness is a terrible snare, and the mob still runs pretty fast for an area where you have little wiggle room.

Clinging is a terrible snare if you can reliably cast a better snare. But if you can't, it's a damn fine snare.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't want to bring up form of the great bear because barbarian polar bear is too cool.
But yes I did 'forget' to add it.

Allow me to paraphrase what you said earlier in the topic "Shaman won't have torpor up 100% of the time" Meaning that racial regen is getting you bigger hp ticks while it's down.
troll even gets racial regen ticks while frontal bashed stunned, lol.

I'll even admit when I solo ayillish my torpor uptime hovers around 94-96% uptime. And I do suffer hp/mana loss because it's not up 100% of the time. but that racial regen helps keep me in the green when it goes down by mistake or on purpose. getting hit for 200+ damage i'll take any mitigation I can against that. Fully self buffed included in that damage number.

Don't get me wrong, regeneration is always useful. I never said otherwise. I still use Fungi Staff when fighting WW Dragons. I am not moving, I don't need SoW, and every bit of mitigation helps.

The reality is there are usually only two modes a solo Shaman operates in:
1. Completely in control of the fight. Torpor always up, slow always up, spells unresisted, etc.
2. Not in control of the fight. Some combination of bad Torpor interrupts, slow interrupts, spell resists, unlucky root breaks, etc.

In situation 1, an extra 8 HP regeneration isn't making a difference. You should never be at a point where you have a dangerous amount of HP, or Mana.

In situation 2, 12 seconds can be the difference between life and death. A Torpor landing, when it would otherwise be interrupted by a stun, will save you. 16 HP from regeneration will not save you.

That is the major difference in our ideas. You are thinking about the long game (getting 4 free Torpors per hour), and I am thinking about the short game (not dying in 12 seconds).

The real debate here is which is better to think about: The long game, or the short game. I argue the short game, due to how fast shamans can regain HP and Mana. If it only takes you 5 minutes to regain full HP/Mana, Troll regeneration is only netting you 400 HP, or 1/3 of a Torpor. That is saving 30 seconds, max. After you are full HP/Mana, your regeneration stops working.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

camping is 30 seconds, the snare is 36-41 seconds long depending on when it lands.

Edit: and root instantly breaks on zoning/camping because it has variable duration. You could actually do it with root but you would need a really large runway to pull it off, which you often won't have in dungeons.



Clinging is a terrible snare if you can reliably cast a better snare. But if you can't, it's a damn fine snare.

That is my bad, clinging is 36 seconds. Brain fart[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is a good point, it would be easier to pull that off in tight spaces, assuming you can log in/out without crashing. I understand the mechanic involving snaring/zoning. I did the math wrong hehe.

My point about the snare % is the same as your point about separating monsters via root and zoning. The runway required is longer, which limits the use cases. Not saying the snare is unusable, but the run speed of the mob is still pretty fast with clinging. The snare is only 30% at best. The lowest Druid snare is 55%. This limits where it can be used for fear kiting significantly.

The nice thing about blind is you can stop the mob from running if you get next to it, so you could limit the mob's movement that way. But then you risk the mob casting a nasty spell, which is why you are fear kiting in the first place.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

After you are full HP/Mana, your regeneration stops working.

Not to diminish your entire post but I saw you try to make this point earlier too

It's invalid.

FSI is only being used when you're facing the mob being hit. Meaning you won't be at full life.

So it's in the same boat as regen, Only saying that regen stops at full life is painting half the picture.

----
BTW Racial Regen does NOT stop at full life, it never stops, nothing can stop it.

unlike FSI the second you turn away from the mob it's doing nothing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not to diminish your entire post but I saw you try to make this point earlier too

It's invalid.

FSI is only being used when you're facing the mob being hit. Meaning you won't be at full life.

So it's in the same boat as regen, Only saying that regen stops at full life is painting half the picture.

Yes, that is my point exactly, actually[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] FSI and Regen really only work in a fight when you have Torpor, due to how quickly you can get back to full HP after the fight. That is what I have been saying for a while now. It shows how racial regeneration is further diminished with Torpor.

If Regeneration and FSI only really matter in a fight, then you look at how much you gain in a fight from each.

In a 15 minute fight, you get 1 Torpor's worth of HP across the entire fight. This assumes you never hit 100% from Torpor, and lose ticks from that.

In a 15 minute fight, you can be stunned many times. I agree you will not always be stunned at a bad time, but Ogres eliminate that possibility. Any poorly timed stun can result in 100s of HP being lost. You can easily lose more than 1200 HP in a fight from some unlucky stuns.

So again, we go back to what do you want more: More consistency in spell casting (and thus less poorly timed stuns), or a consistent 1 extra Torpor per fight. From my experience, a Torpor interrupt at a bad time is more consequential than a free Torpor later in the fight, when I didn't really need it anyway.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, that is my point exactly, actually[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] FSI and Regen really only work in a fight when you have Torpor, due to how quickly you can get back to full HP after the fight. That is what I have been saying for a while now. It shows how racial regeneration is further diminished with Torpor.

There is so much wrong with this... FSI does nothing to help get back to full hp after a fight. Racial regen helps before, during and after a fight. With or without torpor, racial regen wins this.
You're repeating what we talked about. I've stated that with torpor race doesn't matter. But what we are discussing is ogre vs troll.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If Regeneration and FSI only really matter in a fight, then you look at how much you gain in a fight from each.

That's what You're trying to say. Not me. I replied to what you proposed.


I shaved off the last half, because you're just repeating more of what we already talked about and people can find my reponses in previous posts.

FSI applies to frontal stuns
Racial Regen applies to every server tick on the server forever.