Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For those unaware Spear of Constriction drops in Veeshan's Peak from Xygoz and is No Drop.

You can get the clickie snare by level, 30, through a simple quest.

Don't let this elitist ogre fanboy play jedi mind tricks on you.

I'm just showing the downsides to the necklace. Not sure where the problem is here. It really isn't a great item overall, and if you REALLY want snare, there is a way better item out there anyone can use.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm just showing the downsides to the necklace. Not sure where the problem is here. It really isn't a great item overall, and if you REALLY want snare, there is a way better item out there anyone can use.

I do have the spear and it's very good. As you said it's a nice long duration and as shaman who can buff our own dex. The proc isn't all that bad.

But I simply can't award any points to ogre for this.
It only bolsters the Trolls arsenal with an additional snare. Troll shaman gets two snares. +1 troll

simplified
spear +1 ogre | +1 troll
clickie +1 troll
Troll = +2 <-- winner
Ogre = +1

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do have the spear and it's very good. As you said it's a nice long duration and as shaman who can buff our own dex. The proc isn't all that bad.

But I simply can't award any points to ogre for this.
It only bolsters the Trolls arsenal with an additional snare. Troll shaman gets two snares. +1 troll

Of course, having an item is always better than not having an item. I can't argue there[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The main question is what is better: 8 HP regeneration and a snare necklace that has little practical use, or Frontal Stun Immunity. I say FSI, due to it's ability to get you out of bad situations, and the fact that it cannot be acquired on gear.

All Shamans can get plenty of worn regeneration and a spear of constriction.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All Shamans can get plenty of worn regeneration and a spear of constriction.

I'm glad you brought this up.

Troll = (42 hp standing | 48 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+12 standing | +18 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Ogre (34 hp standing | 37 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+4 standing | +7 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Let's go back to my Canni 4 example

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Cannibalize IV
Decrease Hitpoints by 148

Per Tick Standing
Troll -136 HP per Canni 4
Ogre -143 HP per Canni 4

Racial Regen still winning

With the above proposed regen per tick.
Troll - 106 HP Canni 4 standing per tick
Ogre - 114 HP Canni 4 standing per tick


Shaman
Life = Mana = Life

racial regen increases life regen, which effectively increases mana [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm glad you brought this up.

Troll = (42 hp standing | 48 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+12 standing | +18 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Ogre (34 hp standing | 37 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+4 standing | +7 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Let's go back to my Canni 4 example


With the above proposed regen per tick.
Troll - 106 HP Canni 4 standing per tick
Ogre - 114 HP Canni 4 standing per tick

Yes, pre-Torpor Trolls get a nice boost I never denied that. Post Torpor, the boost is barely noticeable.

Troll = 344 max regeneration with Torpor(you forgot about +2 from bear form!).
Ogre = 336 max regeneration with Torpor.

8 HP regeneration is 2.4% of 336. Not a big boost. Pre-Torpor, the difference is 22%, which is pretty damn good.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, pre-Torpor Trolls get a nice boost I never denied that. Post Torpor, the boost is barely noticeable.

Troll = 344 max regeneration with Torpor(you forgot about +2 from bear form!).
Ogre = 336 max regeneration with Torpor.

8 HP regeneration is 2.4% of 336. Not a big boost. Pre-Torpor, the difference is 22%, which is pretty damn good.

I didn't want to bring up form of the great bear because barbarian polar bear is too cool.
But yes I did 'forget' to add it.

Allow me to paraphrase what you said earlier in the topic "Shaman won't have torpor up 100% of the time" Meaning that racial regen is getting you bigger hp ticks while it's down.
troll even gets racial regen ticks while frontal bashed stunned, lol.

I'll even admit when I solo ayillish my torpor uptime hovers around 94-96% uptime. And I do suffer hp/mana loss because it's not up 100% of the time. but that racial regen helps keep me in the green when it goes down by mistake or on purpose. getting hit for 200+ damage i'll take any mitigation I can against that. Fully self buffed included in that damage number.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't want to bring up form of the great bear because barbarian polar bear is too cool.
But yes I did 'forget' to add it.

Allow me to paraphrase what you said earlier in the topic "Shaman won't have torpor up 100% of the time" Meaning that racial regen is getting you bigger hp ticks while it's down.
troll even gets racial regen ticks while frontal bashed stunned, lol.

I'll even admit when I solo ayillish my torpor uptime hovers around 94-96% uptime. And I do suffer hp/mana loss because it's not up 100% of the time. but that racial regen helps keep me in the green when it goes down by mistake or on purpose. getting hit for 200+ damage i'll take any mitigation I can against that. Fully self buffed included in that damage number.

Don't get me wrong, regeneration is always useful. I never said otherwise. I still use Fungi Staff when fighting WW Dragons. I am not moving, I don't need SoW, and every bit of mitigation helps.

The reality is there are usually only two modes a solo Shaman operates in:
1. Completely in control of the fight. Torpor always up, slow always up, spells unresisted, etc.
2. Not in control of the fight. Some combination of bad Torpor interrupts, slow interrupts, spell resists, unlucky root breaks, etc.

In situation 1, an extra 8 HP regeneration isn't making a difference. You should never be at a point where you have a dangerous amount of HP, or Mana.

In situation 2, 12 seconds can be the difference between life and death. A Torpor landing, when it would otherwise be interrupted by a stun, will save you. 16 HP from regeneration will not save you.

That is the major difference in our ideas. You are thinking about the long game (getting 4 free Torpors per hour), and I am thinking about the short game (not dying in 12 seconds).

The real debate here is which is better to think about: The long game, or the short game. I argue the short game, due to how fast shamans can regain HP and Mana. If it only takes you 5 minutes to regain full HP/Mana, Troll regeneration is only netting you 400 HP, or 1/3 of a Torpor. That is saving 30 seconds, max. After you are full HP/Mana, your regeneration stops working.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm just showing the downsides to the necklace. Not sure where the problem is here. It really isn't a great item overall, and if you REALLY want snare, there is a way better item out there anyone can use.

It adds an entirely new feature to the class. It's not OMG overpowered or anything. But it will save you mana in group situations if you don't have another snarer n groups, it can be used to split spawns a non-troll would find impossible to split, and it can be used to ghetto fear kite dangerous spell casters in combination with blindness.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It adds an entirely new feature to the class. It's not OMG overpowered or anything. But it will save you mana in group situations if you don't have another snarer n groups, it can be used to split spawns a non-troll would find impossible to split, and it can be used to ghetto fear kite dangerous spell casters in combination with blindness.

What spawns is a snare able to split that a non-snare cannot split? Never heard of this. I 100% agree the snare neck can pair with blind, but it is hardly usable in a dangerous dungeon. The snare % is so low the mob will still travel unhealthy distances in a relatively quick amount of time. I do a lot of fear kiting on my Shadowknight, so I know a thing or two about the dos and don'ts of fear kiting in tight spaces.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What spawns is a snare able to split that a non-snare cannot split? Never heard of this. I 100% agree the snare neck can pair with blind, but it is hardly usable in a dangerous dungeon. The snare % is so low the mob will still travel unhealthy distances in a relatively quick amount of time. I do a lot of fear kiting on my Shadowknight, so I know a thing or two about the dos and don'ts of fear kiting in tight spaces.

Say a room has 3 pretty tough enemies and you don't like your chances trying take them on all at once. You target 1 enemy you don't want to kill first. Root him. Now the other 2 rush you, now you root one of the other ones you don't want to fight first, leaving you with the one you want to kill. Now you pull tht one back a bit away from the others you have rooted, snare him and immediately camp out. If you have a decent computer/HD you should be able to log back in to grab the snared one without aggroing the others.


Edit: will only be possible during velious timeline due to snare/root stacking.

As far as fear kiting goes, SKs don't have anywhere near the effective killing power of shaman, so shaman can more easily "make a little more elbow room" for himself.