Pandemic screwed essential workers trying to /list

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you proposing a no lockdown rule on certain mobs, namely the ones that drop legacy items?

At the risk of boring everyone else here by repeating the exact same thing I've already said in multiple posts ...

I'm proposing changing /list (1.0) to instead be like a player agreement random roll. No "I don't sleep for five days so I get the best stuff", and instead every player on the server has an equal chance of "winning the roll" for the item.

To address concerns, I proposed adding some sort of "window" to the roll, eg. you have to engage the mob within 2 minutes and kill it within 10, or there's a new roll and someone else gets the mob. But really the exact details aren't important; what's important is shifting from a "threshold system" (only the nuttiest of the server get the best stuff) to an "EverQuest system" (everyone has a chance, those who play more have better chances).

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He's proposing that every time a legacy drops, the people on /list (or presently camping the item by some other metric) all get a roll or a random on winning the item. Like scout roll but more server hardware enforced presumably, and only when the legacy item drops. At least that's my impression of what he's proposing.

Thank you, I'm glad someone got it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Although it could work on either an NPC-level or a dropped-item-level; personally I'm not really picky which, since it doesn't change things much either way. It might not be fun to "win" a Hadden roll and not have him drop an earring, but basing it on Hadden and not the earring might be simpler.

[Mblake81]

So guy that shows up for 5 minutes wins the roll I guess.

How does that take into account the people actively camping the item? holding it down and doing all the work?

I have never seen a camp in eq where holding it down and doing the work allowed others to come in and /random on the goods.

Is scout a camp?

Are we redefining what is and what isn't a camp because of a manastone?

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are we redefining what is and what isn't a camp because of a manastone?

Apparently so, I mean he admits himself that in EQ you show up to claim the camp then camp it until you get your drop or give up. If someone got there before you or can stay longer, than you are out of luck and that's how it is in EQ for every item. But for legacies we just throw that out the window because reasons?

I really think this is a slippery slope, the whining about shit like pained soul and fungi not being on the /roll system would be cacophonous. There's already rumblings from these shitter-come-lately people new to P99 thanks to green that those camps should be /list.

In my opinion the real answer is to fix the orginal dev team's mistake in creating these "legacy" items in the first place by never including them on green. But that ship is sailed. And yes list is far from perfect.

Maybe if anything keep list but when the item drops the top six listers do a /random. The longer you've been on list the more bonus you get on your random perhaps, but now we are getting into more and more coding to add to the project which we all know is unfair and unrealistic to expect at this time.

[loramin]

I'm advocating a major, high-level shift, and I've deliberately tried to avoid "getting into the weeds" so we can focus on what's important (do we want a meritocratic "EverQuest-y" system, or a "threshold system"?)

But ...

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So guy that shows up for 5 minutes wins the roll I guess.

Yes ... just like the guy who lucks out and gets his Guardian Robe after killing one mob in Skyshrine, he can "win the roll" even though you've just killed 999 Skyshrine mobs. Shit's EverQuest.

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How does that take into account the people actively camping the item? holding it down and doing all the work?

I have never seen a camp in eq where holding it down and doing the work allowed others to come in and /random on the goods.

/list 1.0 already addresses this. /list 2.0 could solve it in multiple ways (as I previously outlined). Either it could go "full player agreement mode" and no one could get a new mob until the old was cleared ("forcing" people to help) ... or (and I think this is more EverQuest-y) "winning the roll" could only give you a window to kill the mob: fail to do so and there's a new roll, so someone who can kill it can do so.

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is scout a camp?

/list 1.0 was very deliberately only applied to legacy items, because it was new and the staff wanted to "dip their toe" into the water of "automated GMing". I see no reason to change that, and so I'd start with /list 2.0 only applying to legacy item camps.

But ultimately, yeah I think having the server enforce an ("EverQuest-y") system would be superior to player agreements. For instance, a server-enforced system with a window could remove the need for people to help with fights (which as I've said, is necessary to make the agreement work ... but who remembers Scout working that way on live?).

Of course, for the "roll mobs" specifically P99 would require custom code to "give" the fight to another player if the first fails, and this is the sort of detail that would need to be worked out if/when this system ever made it that far (some people might argue that's more or less "EverQuest-Y" than the player agreement system; I'd argue it's more, but again I don't want to get lost in details).

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are we redefining what is and what isn't a camp because of a manastone?

Again, I'm talking about /list, and currently /list is legacy item camps. But I could absolutely see great benefit to extending the system elsewhere in the game ... it's just that the details of how it's implemented matter, and those details would need to be sorted out to make it applicable. Hadden is different from the Evil Eye, who's different from the Fungus King, who is different from an NPC (like Scout) you have to turn something into.

Which leads to ...

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

sheiit, put me down for a Fungi.. i will sit in the corner with my rogue and watch porn while some other fools do all the hard work.. alls I gotta do is /random and get lucky

While the details would have to be worked out, obviously it would need to address that sort of thing. One already-discussed mechanism to do so would be the window (good luck killing that king by yourself ...)

Ultimately, I'm not saying "let's change everything overnight without thinking", but I am arguing for a high-level change to make P99 more classic, expressed first through a superior (2.0) version of /list ... with the idea being that the principle could ultimately be used elsewhere.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thank you, I'm glad someone got it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Although it could work on either an NPC-level or a dropped-item-level; personally I'm not really picky which, since it doesn't change things much either way. It might not be fun to "win" a Hadden roll and not have him drop an earring, but basing it on Hadden and not the earring might be simpler.

Ok, so you DO propose that this system should follow every rare item time sink camp? I can appreciate the consistency in that but for me personally it really does start to feel like not EQ anymore. People rolled on stuff when camping in a group together, you never just showed up to camp and expected to roll when it dropped two minutes later against a guy who'd held the spawn for hours. I understand it for legacies based on what we've seen but I just don't see it being a good idea extended to the game at large.

Stuff like ring 8 and scout work because there are hard limitations to them, doing the quest pre-req's, faction, level considerations, travel and location dangers. You do this at hadden and its a royal shit show. Even with the success of something like ring8/scout you still have constant drama, attempts to game the system or monopolize the spawn or hand off to buddies alts surreptitiously, people showing up aggro and non factioned cause all they see is pixels and don't actually prepare, underleveled people causing friction with frequent rollers.

Now we open that all up to a mob in a newbie zone? To a camp deep in the second floor of seb prone to trains of shit that can easily wipe velious geared 60 groups? I just imagine a constant auction on RMT sites for these items/MQ's when its only a /random away for some dude that does nothing but log toons in at the value camps at the roll time all day every day.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes ... just like the guy who lucks out and gets his Guardian Robe after killing one mob in Skyshrine, he can "win the roll" even though you've just killed 999 Skyshrine mobs. Shit's EverQuest.

Lucking out on a zone wide drop is very different from camping a static spawn PH/named cycle and doesn't really seem comparable.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, so you DO propose that this system should follow every rare item time sink camp? I can appreciate the consistency in that but for me personally it really does start to feel like not EQ anymore. People rolled on stuff when camping in a group together, you never just showed up to camp and expected to roll when it dropped two minutes later against a guy who'd held the spawn for hours. I understand it for legacies based on what we've seen but I just don't see it being a good idea extended to the game at large.

What I want to change ... and again this is a philosophical change, to get closer to classic EQ ... is to move away from "only people willing to do crazy non-EQ things get the best EQ stuff". That is a purely P99-construct, created to deal with the fact that we have way more people who want Manastones (or whatever) here than live did. But (as I've tried to argue) it's not the most "EverQuest-Y" solution.

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Stuff like ring 8 and scout work because there are hard limitations to them, doing the quest pre-req's, faction, level considerations, travel and location dangers. You do this at hadden and its a royal shit show. Even with the success of something like ring8/scout you still have constant drama, attempts to game the system or monopolize the spawn or hand off to buddies alts surreptitiously, people showing up aggro and non factioned cause all they see is pixels and don't actually prepare, underleveled people causing friction with frequent rollers.

Now we open that all up to a mob in a newbie zone? To a camp deep in the second floor of seb prone to trains of shit that can easily wipe velious geared 60 groups? I just imagine a constant auction on RMT sites for these items/MQ's when its only a /random away for some dude that does nothing but log toons in at the value camps at the roll time all day every day.

I guess I confused people by trying to apply a principle, which I see existing across EverQuest, to justify a specific change to /list ... and I made things worse by suggesting that someday that system (in some form) might be used elsewhere besides Legacy mobs.

Point #1:
I 100% think "/list 2.0" (based on playing the game and patience/luck, nothing else) is better than /list 1.0 (where not sleeping for days and clicking a box every few minutes is what matters), for legacy mobs.

Point #2:
At the same time, I think a shift towards more "automated GMing" could make P99 more classic in many other places too. For instance, it could allow for Scout rolls where you have to actually bring friends and do the fight yourself.

As I said before, forcing everyone there to help is not classic EQ ... but it is a necessary departure from classic EQ if you want to make a player-run (and not server-implemented) agreement. "Automated GMing" could improve that.

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lucking out on a zone wide drop is very different from camping a static spawn PH/named cycle and doesn't really seem comparable.

My point was more that lots of EverQuest is about luck. There's nothing "not-EverQuest-y" about giving people an equal random chance at something that multiple people want, whether that thing is a Guardian Robe, Fishbone Earring, or whatever.

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I want to change ... and again this is a philosophical change, to get closer to classic EQ ... is to move away from "only people willing to do crazy non-EQ things get the best EQ stuff". That is a purely P99-construct, created to deal with the fact that we have way more people who want Manastones (or whatever) here than live did. But (as I've tried to argue) it's not the most "EverQuest-Y" solution.

Everquest-y

People willing to log on later at night, say after 10pm or wake up early on a weekend to play all day were once things people wouldn't consider but did because of Original Everquest.

Your philosophy is flawed.

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lucking out on a zone wide drop is very different from camping a static spawn PH/named cycle and doesn't really seem comparable.

It's not and hes reaching.

[Castle2.0]

"Playing the lottery" is luck. Put in $1 (low or no value) and hope for a big win against immeasurable and changing odds.

"Playing the odds" is putting in something of real value (time, effort, skill, money and/or something else) to win where a measurable and not infinitesimally small odds exists.

EQ is more like playing the odds (ex: poker), and less like the lottery.

Your lotto method is counter to the true spirit of EQ. That is the "RNG" side of EQ. There is one more side: 'the classic MMORPG equation' - see below.

EQ was always a "resources in, pixels out" equation. To get your epic, train your tradeskills, kill a raid target, camp a rare item, get to max level, etc. will cost you time, plat, effort, and some skill.

We didn't sign up to play a slot machine. See lottery vs poker example above if it's not making sense.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Castle2.0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Playing the lottery" is luck. Put in $1 (low or no value) and hope for a big win against immeasurable and changing odds.

"Playing the odds" is putting in something of real value (time, effort, skill, money and/or something else) to win where a measurable and not infinitesimally small odds exists.

EQ is more like playing the odds (ex: poker), and less like the lottery.

Your lotto method is counter to the true spirit of EQ. That is the "RNG" side of EQ. There is one more side: 'the classic MMORPG equation' - see below.

EQ was always a "resources in, pixels out" equation. To get your epic, train your tradeskills, kill a raid target, camp a rare item, get to max level, etc. will cost you time, plat, effort, and some skill.

We didn't sign up to play a slot machine. See lottery vs poker example above if it's not making sense.

It's a lotto either way, and ultimately it has to be. There's no other way to fairly distribute one mastone among 100 people that want it.

The question is, do we only let the most insane players, who are willing to do (extreme) non-EverQuest things (like not sleep for a week), participate in that lottery, or do we open it up to everyone who wants to play the game?