Good bye

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Twochain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loramin, there is NOTHING keeping you from raiding Temple of Veeshan. If you wanted to, you would. I feel as though you believe the top guides on this server do not have the best interest of this project at heart. And that is ridiculous. I do enjoy your wikiguides though.

There absolutely is: the unclassic "competition" system. I keep repeating it, but everyone keeps ignoring what I say, so I'l repeat it yet again.

There are three, I repeat, three levels of guilds on this server. Not "l33t hard-working uber-raiders" and "filthy lazy casuals", but:

1. guilds that aren't capable of ToV
2. guilds that can do ToV (either individually or in an alliance) and are willing and able to play the unclassic P99 competition game
3. guilds that can do ToV (either individually or in an alliance) and aren't willing and/or able to play the unclassic P99 competition game

Switching to a rotated system would by definition allow all of the guilds in group #3 , who don't currently do so, to experience ToV. In other words, it would let more of the server experience classic EverQuest content, supposedly what this server is all about. And for all this outcry over how it would destroy the server, the Sky rotation has worked awfully well for many years now.

[Kazik]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. guilds that can do ToV (either individually or in an alliance) and aren't willing and/or able to play the unclassic P99 competition game

Switching to a rotated system would by definition allow all of the guilds in group #3 , who don't currently do so, to experience ToV. In other words, it would let more of the server experience classic EverQuest content, supposedly what this server is all about. And for all this outcry over how it would destroy the server, the Sky rotation has worked awfully well for many years now.

The point of the server isn’t to give everyone BiS pixels, it’s to have a server as close to classic as possible.

Guess what? Casual players not having BiS gear is as classic as it gets.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Kazik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point of the server isn’t to give everyone BiS pixels, it’s to have a server as close to classic as possible.

Guess what? Casual players not having BiS gear is as classic as it gets.

Classic had what, three guilds max in ToV? And ToV loot was good for what, a year? Before it was replaced with much better Luclin loot, making ToV irrelevant.

Per Braknar himself there are sometimes eight guilds in ToV on P99:

[1:23 PM] Braknar: Has there ever been 8 guilds competing for ToV?

[1:24 PM] Braknar: Have you been online to watch the shit show that ensues?

And on top of all that, I don't remember first to engage messages, coth races, or any of the other B.S. that is completely unclassic but taken as a sacred part of the raid scene here.

But really, none of that has anything to do with what I'm saying. I'm not saying give BIS gear to whoever wants it, I'm saying let anyone capable of killing the dragons that drop BIS gear have a shot at killing them (ie. let people play the game we're all here to play, and let the game decide who gets what loot). After all, this is an emulated nostalgia server, and we're all here to relive our dreams of killing dragons together, right?

So try again. The current scene is so far from classic it's embarrassing that anyone even tries to use "classic" as an excuse for preserving it.

EDIT: Changed a word to "B.S." because I forgot I wasn't in RnF.

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Classic had what, three guilds max in ToV? And ToV loot was good for what, a year? Before it was replaced with much better Luclin loot, making ToV irrelevant.

Classic had 3 guilds in ToV since those 3 guilds blocked everyone else from getting the gear and keys to get into ToV.

If you aren't shitting on other guilds in the Velious era and you aren't being shat on, its not classic.

They didn't come up with instance for no reason.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by derpcake2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Classic had 3 guilds in ToV since those 3 guilds blocked everyone else from getting the gear and keys to get into ToV.

If you aren't shitting on other guilds in the Velious era and you aren't being shat on, its not classic.

Man P99 has completely replaced your memories of what live was like hasn't it? To be fair, it's done that to me too with things: it's so like the original it's easy for it to happen.

Live had only a tiny fraction of the server raiding compared to P99. We had SEVEN. YEARS. OF KUNARK. Live had literally less than a year. Even in raid guilds, many members weren't even 60 yet.

There were only three guilds in ToV because only three guilds had enough players to raid ToV. It had absolutely nothing to do with guilds actively blocking other guilds. And not even every server had three guilds in ToV!

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There were only three guilds in ToV because only three guilds had enough players to raid ToV. It had absolutely nothing to do with guilds actively blocking other guilds. And not even every server had three guilds in ToV!

It absolutely wasn't a player shortage, servers used to show population back then.

Its just that non-hardcore players hadn't even heard of ToV. EQ was still gaining players back then, during velious peak most of the casuals were discovering Kunark.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by derpcake2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It absolutely wasn't a player shortage, servers used to show population back then.

Its just that non-hardcore players hadn't even heard of ToV. EQ was still gaining players back then, during velious peak most of the casuals were discovering Kunark.

There were similar overall population numbers yes, but that's where the similarity ends. Again, during the Velious era many live players didn't even have a single level 60 character (even some in raid guilds!) They certainly didn't all have BiS Kunark gear, or anything close, when Velious arrived.

Here players regularly have multiple level 60s, and even on day one of Velious's release many of those 60s were decked out in full BiS Kunark gear. Even if not, they were still massively over-geared (and again, over-leveled) relative to live.

And that was before the massively unclassic two plus-years of Velious here!

The simple truth is that Blue is, by design, extremely unclassic in this regard. Blue's goal is not to recreate classic EverQuest: it's to let the devs beta test their work for the "real" classic EverQuest server, Green.

But of course that leaves the question of "well we have literally hundreds more raid-capable people here than we ever did on live, so how do we handle it?" There are plenty of arguments about that elsewhere, so I won't go into it, but the one thing I will say is that any solution will have to be an unclassic one*, because our situation is nothing like it was on the classic live servers.

* Or at least a semi-unclassic one: rotations were practiced on live during the classic era, but only on some servers, and generally only on content that was considered "old". For instance, on my server, Bristlebane, Vox and Naggy were rotated at the end of Luclin/start of PoP, so like 2-3 years after they were first released. You could make the case that the ToV dragons have lived here about that long, or you could make the case that we've never gone to Luclin so it would never be classic to rotate anything. But my point is rotations are clearly "semi-classic", and that's the closest to classic any solution will get.


P.S.

Originally Posted by derpcake2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lets not slander Braknar by naming him alongside Sirken.

If you read the logs, Braknar and Sirken together tried to bring rotations to P99. That's what was being referred to I believe.

[Twochain]

Originally Posted by Kazik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point of the server isn’t to give everyone BiS pixels, it’s to have a server as close to classic as possible.

Guess what? Casual players not having BiS gear is as classic as it gets.

This.

That's the main thing why Loramins stance bothers me. You claim the classic experience is the top guilds rotating zones with the lower guilds. I seriously doubt that it happened during the hay day of Velious, and if it did, it was on 1/10th of the servers.

Yes, last night may have been the "Wild wild west" but I mean, we made a mistake, and we owned up to it. That's all we can do. It's not like we have scenarios going on where each guild fucks up each other's pulls all the time. Or training on purpose. That kind of thing never happens. And those are the type of things I think of, when I think "Tov is a shit show". I also don't get the whole notion that the system helps those who break the rules. If we're winning 85%, that statement basically says that we break rules all the time. I simply do NOT think that is true. But hey, I don't have access to officer chat, maybe i'm wrong. Maybe they're in there scheming on how we're going to cheat to steal dragons every week.. >.>

And Loramin, Maybe you're correct about the 3 guild tiers. I don't get your point. I said there is nothing holding YOU back from raiding in Temple of Veeshan. First of all, there are 4 guilds who basically are in there competing every week. You could easily apply to one of those guilds if you wanted to see top end content.

But wait! Of course you don't want to leave your big family guild Anonymous! However...

Lord Bob raids in ToV all the fucking time. He doesn't even have a guild, he just spams EC for rando's to show up, and he leads them as best as he can. Sometimes, he's successful in bringing in Named mobs. Which is impressive considering the infrastructure. I don't know if I've even ever seen you in the zone. Once. So forgive me if I don't feel pity to your Muh turn in tov plight.


The reality is that there aren't many options


1. Leave it as is, Let the guilds work everything out amongst themselves (Personally I think this is the best option.) Maybe form a player made rule enforcement council.

2. Root the Dragons. My opinion is that this solution would make things worse. ToV has a training problem as it is. And your pulling mobs to the safety of the zone's entrance. I can't begin to imagine the shit show that would be NToV when 4 guilds are trying to race each other to Lady M after she pops.

3. Bring back FTE races, with an hour lockout. This solution may make sense as well.


4. Class system. I never liked it. But I certainly understand why people would. Most people would just throw alts in other guilds. /shrug.


5.... idk... leave it how it is, but every 3rd Friday of the month, simpop happens where all top 4-5 guilds are not allowed to enter ToV for 24 hours.

There is no "Correct" answer. Only, which one will piss off the least amount of people. A full on rotation really kills the spirit of the game though, in my opinion. Especially considering how exaggerated all the "issues in tov" are.

Loramin. Get a crew together. Windows open next Friday. I bet Aftermath bends over backwards to try and accommodate your raid. All you have to do is follow the rules. I'd beg detox to let you have our corner if you can show up with 35 people on a Friday night.

And if you can't, you shouldn't be bitching about not being able to raid ToV.

my 2cent

[baakss]

Originally Posted by Twochain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ToV has a training problem as it is. And your pulling mobs to the safety of the zone's entrance.

ToV being a training shit show is classic though. I took off school as a kid to train the Euro guild that was trying to snipe Vulak when we left Vyemm and Vulak up one night.

Pulling dragons to the zone line? I dont remember anything like that. I highly doubt that was going on back in the day.

[Twochain]

Originally Posted by baakss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ToV being a training shit show is classic though. I took off school as a kid to train the Euro guild that was trying to snipe Vulak when we left Vyemm and Vulak up one night.

Pulling dragons to the zone line? I dont remember anything like that. I highly doubt that was going on back in the day.

But it was probably possible.