Thread about why You Hate Luclin

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I believe that a race SHOULD mostly spend first 10-20 levels in their native area, unless you traveling across the world to play with a friend. Preventing travel by level forcefully is bad game design. If I want to be Human Druid and my friend is Dwarf - we literally do not meet until like lev 30. Which is bad.

Preventing ports* by level, particularly NPC ports, is not the same as preventing travel by level (although inherently there must be places low level people aren't able to get to). If someone who started in Qeynos wants to play with their friend who is starting Dwarf, then they are going to have to run and meet up - an adventure! This also creates a further layer of community interaction, because low level players are going to need help running through certain areas.

I'm also perfectly fine with the idea of a race that is disconnected from the others, like for example if Vah Shir had to stay on Luclin until level 30 (could be easily explained by their bodies not being able to adapt to Norrath environment until maturity). Everyone knows going in if they pick the race, that's just the gameplay experience they are going to get. If a game ever had a Merfolk race, that would probably be a good way to do it - must stay underwater until you become mature enough to transform your tail into legs. EQ already had something very close to this with Iksar anyway - they were supposed to be extremely difficult to play in the Old World zones, pretty much needing to stay in Kunark unless you'd have enough friends to constantly vendor/bank for you elsewhere.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Preventing ports* by level, particularly NPC ports, is not the same as preventing travel by level (although inherently there must be places low level people aren't able to get to). If someone who started in Qeynos wants to play with their friend who is starting Dwarf, then they are going to have to run and meet up - an adventure! This also creates a further layer of community interaction, because low level players are going to need help running through certain areas.

I'm also perfectly fine with the idea of a race that is disconnected from the others, like for example if Vah Shir had to stay on Luclin until level 30 (could be easily explained by their bodies not being able to adapt to Norrath environment until maturity). Everyone knows going in if they pick the race, that's just the gameplay experience they are going to get. If a game ever had a Merfolk race, that would probably be a good way to do it - must stay underwater until you become mature enough to transform your tail into legs. EQ already had something very close to this with Iksar anyway - they were supposed to be extremely difficult to play in the Old World zones, pretty much needing to stay in Kunark unless you'd have enough friends to constantly vendor/bank for you elsewhere.

Ok I agree on Iksar example - note how it was very hard for them to go outside of Kunark, but it wasn't restricted artificially. Vah Shir NOT being able to leave Luclin at all due to hard level req would have been bad game design.
Your example with Merfolk is interesting one, but maybe too pushing. There was a game that tried something like that. I believe in Horizons you could play dragon, but you had to actually MATURE with time, rather than gaining levels, and it took forever, and game mostly failed. And that was even before WoW success.

Basically between going ALL LORE RPG and ALL EASY MODE gaming, I want to see a game that is something in between. Where RPG side is pushed to the max, but without becoming an artificial burden of gameplay.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your example with Merfolk is interesting one, but maybe too pushing. There was a game that tried something like that. I believe in Horizons you could play dragon, but you had to actually MATURE with time, rather than gaining levels, and it took forever, and game mostly failed. And that was even before WoW success.

I don't think it's punishing that Merfolk would need to stay underwater until a certain level. That would just be part of playing the game, if you pick the race. If you don't like the idea of playing underwater and being separated from other races until you level up significantly, then you just don't pick that race. This could have been the case with Vah Shir too; it's not bad design because it's restricted to something the player chooses. Race selection can be more than just physical appearance in a game; to me that should be the main point of what you choose actually - getting a different kind of gameplay experience (not just different in starting stats, or attributes like regeneration).

Horizons was originally planned as a very ambitious game with tons of great ideas, and would have moved the MMORPG genre in a very beneficial direction. Unfortunately it got ruined by money-hungry people who just wanted to make a quick profit for their own benefit. It was actually going to have a Merfolk race, with restrictions like I was talking about, but that race and the underwater zones got scrapped altogether. I don't know how the Dragons eventually got implemented in the very sad release version, but that's definitely a tricky thing to do.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think it's punishing that Merfolk would need to stay underwater until a certain level. That would just be part of playing the game, if you pick the race. If you don't like the idea of playing underwater and being separated from other races until you level up significantly, then you just don't pick that race. This could have been the case with Vah Shir too; it's not bad design because it's restricted to something the player chooses. Race selection can be more than just physical appearance in a game; to me that should be the main point of what you choose actually - getting a different kind of gameplay experience (not just different in starting stats, or attributes like regeneration).

Horizons was originally planned as a very ambitious game with tons of great ideas, and would have moved the MMORPG genre in a very beneficial direction. Unfortunately it got ruined by money-hungry people who just wanted to make a quick profit for their own benefit. It was actually going to have a Merfolk race, with restrictions like I was talking about, but that race and the underwater zones got scrapped altogether. I don't know how the Dragons eventually got implemented in the very sad release version, but that's definitely a tricky thing to do.

I see where you coming from, but this asymmetric race balance is very hard to achieve. Horizons also had planned Vampire race that could not ever go out during day light. With this perspective each race should have a significant perk, but if you have some races that normal and some with strong downside - they simply not going to be played by majority of players. I mean there are rogue-like game out-there that have this niche choices and some people play those and enjoy their RP, but in the big MMO market it won't work out.
EQ also tried some of this things but they mostly failed:
-Ogre Having Front Stun immunity is ridiculously OP for SKs and Shamans in end game.
-Iksar on other hands cannot wear plate armor in exchange of rather tiny AC bonus

When WoW first started Taurens had +3% hp over total max hp possible. This automatically made them best tank possible in the game. That was bad game design and they removed it.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see where you coming from, but this asymmetric race balance is very hard to achieve. Horizons also had planned Vampire race that could not ever go out during day light. With this perspective each race should have a significant perk, but if you have some races that normal and some with strong downside - they simply not going to be played by majority of players. I mean there are rogue-like game out-there that have this niche choices and some people play those and enjoy their RP, but in the big MMO market it won't work out.

When WoW first started Taurens had +3% hp over total max hp possible. This automatically made them best tank possible in the game. That was bad game design and they removed it.

I think those races like Vampire would be played plenty. People want a different experience. Even if certain races aren't popular that's perfectly fine, not everything needs to be popular.

Your example of Taurens in WoW shows how bad their overall design is. If 3% max HP is automatically making someone the best tank in a game, then there has not been enough consideration given to armor class or avoidance or other factors. You could easily slap some kind of downside on a race with a 3% max HP bonus - such as "vulnerable to fire" - and then they would become worse tanks in certain areas.