Which class for Dungeon Crawl focus?

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bard isn't a solo class in the "solo dungeon crawl" sense though
or

I disagree with this 100%. Have you played a bard? Mad respect for your enchanter skills but I’ve seen you bash bards in threads before. There is no better dungeon soloer than a bard up until level 50. They can still do it 50+, just have to med after running out of mana. I’m not saying they are as good as an enchanter 50+. However they should be considered solo dungeon crawlers. And IMO they are much better than shamans in that sense until a shaman has gear and torpor. Even then, shamans can’t dps that well and that’s a longgggg way to get to that point when being 60 generally gets boring after awhil if not raising. .

Much better than given credit for, and playing a plate class that can Regen and charm in dungeons has been one of my most enjoyable experiences on p99.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree with this 100%. Have you played a bard? Mad respect for your enchanter skills but I’ve seen you bash bards in threads before. There is no better dungeon soloer than a bard up until level 50. They can still do it 50+, just have to med after running out of mana. I’m not saying they are as good as an enchanter 50+. However they should be considered solo dungeon crawlers. And IMO they are much better than shamans in that sense until a shaman has gear and torpor. Even then, shamans can’t dps that well and that’s a longgggg way to get to that point when being 60 generally gets boring after awhil if not raising. .

Much better than given credit for, and playing a plate class that can Regen and charm in dungeons has been one of my most enjoyable experiences on p99.

I'm not bashing bards. I love bards. They're amazing. I had one at 59 (my first character that high on p99), 3rd epic bard on the server, VP weapons, etc. I'm somewhat familiar with them. Please quote me bashing bards, because I don't recall it.

All that aside, I've literally never seen nor heard of a bard solo dungeon crawling basically anywhere, ever. I'd enjoy seeing it, but if this were really a thing, I think I would have at least heard of it at some point in the last several years of hanging around p99. I'm happy to be proven incorrect.

Edit - screw you though, because now I want to try to play a bard from 1-60 soloing in dungeons like I did with Noman, and I already don't have enough time in the day! But really I doubt it's possible in a real way. Being able to kill stuff in a dungeon with charm isn't quite the same thing as "solo dungeon crawl" imo. A bard seems like it'd be too reliant on a semblance of open space to make it work, something that is lacking in a lot of dungeons, and doesn't seem to have the tools you'd need to turn a sour situation back to good when things inevitably go bad. If people think enchanters live on a razor's edge, I can only imagine trying to crawl through any dungeon that's not blackburrow, crushbone, city of mist, karnors-type dungeons. I may be overstating a shaman's solo dungeon crawl ability pre-50, but I don't think I understated a bard's by saying they're not really a solo dungeon crawl class.

[kruptcy]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All that aside, I've literally never seen nor heard of a bard solo dungeon crawling basically anywhere, ever. I'd enjoy seeing it, but if this were really a thing, I think I would have at least heard of it at some point in the last several years of hanging around p99. I'm happy to be proven incorrect.

You are not incorrect. Bards can solo amazingly, but not crawl dungeons. I have leveled 2 bards (not that leveling 2 bards is a measure of skill or knowledge) and primarily group / duo, rather than swarm. I consider myself to be a pretty competent bard, and I hope others would agree.

Bards have a few primary methods of soloing:

Fear kiting (not appropriate in enclosed spaces with lots of potential adds)
Charming (not appropriate in enclosed spaces, as you'll take hits on every break)
Regular Kiting (not appropriate in enclosed spaces with lots of potential adds)

This isn't to say you can't solo for exp at very select camps in certain dungeons, but you'll never see a bard able to crawl through a dungeon the way a chanter or a shaman can.

Edit: Not trying to explain to you, rather to other people in the thread.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All that aside, I've literally never seen nor heard of a bard solo dungeon crawling basically anywhere, ever. I'd enjoy seeing it, but if this were really a thing, I think I would have at least heard of it at some point in the last several years of hanging around p99. I'm happy to be proven incorrect.

I played my EC mule Dramor quite a bit solo in dungeons up to 52 (KC/CoM, but also SolB). If you think about it a tick, everyone and their brother can solo a fungi monk to 60 and Bards stack up reasonably:

Bards get max defense skill, slow song, and regeneration song which is basically a second fungi. Dramor was still getting pasted at 50 or so, but he was in Lambent not Dwarf armor and IIRC Bard defensive skills also got a boost with Velious. Bards can also fear-kite the last 30% or so and take no damage at all while regenerating. I'd say the Bard is actually ahead of the monk here.

Bard weapon ratios are actually quite good, and they can supplement their damage with song/ss bracer damage shields and chants. If we guesstimate 20 dps melee, 8 dps damage shield, and 15 dps from two chants, that's a solid 45 or so. Way ahead of the soloing Paladin videos, and not all that far behind a Monk.

Monks can FD, but Bards can mez and heal up. I would guess that a Bard could kill anything <=55 with enough patience. I would definitely hesitate to lull rooms of 3-4 on a Bard unless I could zip to the zoneline, though.

And we haven't even talked about Charm; basically everything you said about distance from the mob applies to Bards, and they can even run away while recharming.

The biggest weakness of Bards is that they get zero HP buffs: no shielding, no runes, etc. So you can go down pretty fast. Fortunately there are a lot of epic clerics on P99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR: Enchanters are better, but Bards can definitely solo in dungeons.

[kruptcy]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR: Enchanters are better, but Bards can definitely solo in dungeons.

Again, Bards can solo in dungeons, but we are talking about crawling. Comparing a bard to a monk is just silliness. Bards dont even get double attack and don't get riposte until 58. Not to mention lower caps on all defensive skills. Unless you have epic, your songs are extraordinarily hamstrung by meleeing, and all of the things you said would work only against a single low blue, if even then.

Bards are my favorite class, but they are not a solo dungeon crawling class.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I played my EC mule Dramor quite a bit solo in dungeons up to 52 (KC/CoM, but also SolB). If you think about it a tick, everyone and their brother can solo a fungi monk to 60 and Bards stack up reasonably:

Bards get max defense skill, slow song, and regeneration song which is basically a second fungi. Dramor was still getting pasted at 50 or so, but he was in Lambent not Dwarf armor and IIRC Bard defensive skills also got a boost with Velious. Bards can also fear-kite the last 30% or so and take no damage at all while regenerating. I'd say the Bard is actually ahead of the monk here.

Bard weapon ratios are actually quite good, and they can supplement their damage with song/ss bracer damage shields and chants. If we guesstimate 20 dps melee, 8 dps damage shield, and 15 dps from two chants, that's a solid 45 or so. Way ahead of the soloing Paladin videos, and not all that far behind a Monk.

Monks can FD, but Bards can mez and heal up. I would guess that a Bard could kill anything <=55 with enough patience. I would definitely hesitate to lull rooms of 3-4 on a Bard unless I could zip to the zoneline, though.

And we haven't even talked about Charm; basically everything you said about distance from the mob applies to Bards, and they can even run away while recharming.

The biggest weakness of Bards is that they get zero HP buffs: no shielding, no runes, etc. So you can go down pretty fast. Fortunately there are a lot of epic clerics on P99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR: Enchanters are better, but Bards can definitely solo in dungeons.

I think my focus here is on the subject of the thread. "Dungeon Crawl focus." It doesn't say "which classes can XP in a dungeon?" or I'd agree bard should be in the running, as well as others. "Dungeon Crawl focus" suggests more, in my mind, than just being able to pick off a mob or two in the one safest spot of a dungeon to be able to XP on them. Bards can't really do more than that, and they especially can't do it all the way from 1-60 like a chanter or necro could, which is why I wrote them off in the specific context of this thread.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Edit - screw you though, because now I want to try to play a bard from 1-60 soloing in dungeons like I did with Noman, and I already don't have enough time in the day! But really I doubt it's possible in a real way. Being able to kill stuff in a dungeon with charm isn't quite the same thing as "solo dungeon crawl" imo. A bard seems like it'd be too reliant on a semblance of open space to make it work, something that is lacking in a lot of dungeons, and doesn't seem to have the tools you'd need to turn a sour situation back to good when things inevitably go bad. If people think enchanters live on a razor's edge, I can only imagine trying to crawl through any dungeon that's not blackburrow, crushbone, city of mist, karnors-type dungeons. I may be overstating a shaman's solo dungeon crawl ability pre-50, but I don't think I understated a bard's by saying they're not really a solo dungeon crawl class.

It's extremely possible. And I also have a 60 enchanter. Bard's can crawl, although I'll admit you probably want a fungi. But that's not that big of a deal in this current economy. In my 30s I was giggling like a little school girl crawling Dalnir when nobody, not even enchanters, were bothering going into those depths solo. I saw your video on Noman in Dalnir, was much easier on bard. Is a necro in an undead dungeon or enc more powerful with dungeon solo 50+? Yea probably, but I've had way more fun on bard testing the limits.

If you do a 1-60 dungeon bard, I'll be sure to watch some of the videos.

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have played extensive bard. Yes, you can do dungeons on bard. No, it is not very effective or efficient.

Respectfully, you're wrong. No offense but you're either not doing it right, or just don't have the skill level.