new patch ench charm

[Throb]

I can't find the post now, but recall a dev posting the reason for the nerf was to make sure charm breaks randomly. The problem with that reasoning is that it already did before the nerf. Sure sometimes it lasted max duration with tash/malo, but I can distinctly remember some insta breaks and random 1-2 min breaks, even with properly debuffed mobs and 235+ charisma. So you guys have fixed a problem that didn't exist, and in effect you have rendered an entire spell line nearly useless.

[Haynar]

Originally Posted by Throb [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can't find the post now, but recall a dev posting the reason for the nerf was to make sure charm breaks randomly. The problem with that reasoning is that it already did before the nerf. Sure sometimes it lasted max duration with tash/malo, but I can distinctly remember some insta breaks and random 1-2 min breaks, even with properly debuffed mobs and 235+ charisma. So you guys have fixed a problem that didn't exist, and in effect you have rendered an entire spell line nearly useless.

I have not looked at the changes. But that is how it was intended before. If the mob was tashed, malo'd, charm would often last the duration. The big issues, were the consequences when charm would break.

Charm should cause wipes on raids if used. Charm should be useable to solo. Charm should be dangerous in groups, but useable if you keep the mob snared, tashed, and malo'd.

I don't know how to fix the issue, with charm being a primary dps method on raids.

Maybe charmed mobs should run off randomly in wrong directions and bring back trains, if their master is not close enough?

There are so many things that could be explored.

[Taryth]

Originally Posted by Haynar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have not looked at the changes. But that is how it was intended before. If the mob was tashed, malo'd, charm would often last the duration. The big issues, were the consequences when charm would break.

Charm should cause wipes on raids if used. Charm should be useable to solo. Charm should be dangerous in groups, but useable if you keep the mob snared, tashed, and malo'd.

I don't know how to fix the issue, with charm being a primary dps method on raids.

Maybe charmed mobs should run off randomly in wrong directions and bring back trains, if their master is not close enough?

There are so many things that could be explored.

Why change anything at all from how it was during classic? I know a lot of the recent posts on the matter have supplied anecdotal evidence, which should never be taken as a trustworthy fact, but they are compelling. If Enchs were a bit OP on Live, why is that being changed here? There are other things that nobody agrees with which are implemented, and the reason given is that it's how it was in classic.
What's with the divergence from the stated plan?


BTW, I'm not complaining; I'm genuinely curious. I know the devs are free to do whateverthefuck they wish with the server, it just doesn't fit in with a lot of the nerfs/unpopular changes that are allowed because that's how X was in classic.

[chr0nix]

It seems the Devs knew charm was way OP compared to how it was on Live, with all the non charming classes putting in complaints about Necros, druids, enchanters running camps, (Especially in CoM) so they basically nerfed it into oblivion to make it worthless to give them time to tweak it out to make it usable but unreliable. Hopefully we see it changed to be more in line with how it should be. 3-4min avg with some breaking within a min and some lasting upwards to the max duration, 5-7min. I'll take that over the current 5 breaks within a minute every minute.

[Haynar]

Originally Posted by Taryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why change anything at all from how it was during classic?

In classic, everyone did not know that cha was vital to charm, along with tash and malo on the mob.

So if you can come up with a way to make everyone stupid, and not know that info, let me know how to implement it.

H

[Taryth]

That makes sense.
Thanks, and sorry if you or one of the other devs has already said this somewhere.

[kanras]

Originally Posted by Splorf22

http://wiki.project1999.org/index.ph...er_Spell_Guideand
http://wiki.project1999.org/index.ph...nchanter_Guide

These were stolen from a Tripod page. It looks like Xornn started in late kunark (he had breeze), hit 50 around Velious, and took a break until Luclin at 56.

Some quotes:

Under charm soloing he says 'honestly I usually get 2 fights in easy using attack slow as the edge'.

'That's all there is to it, really. Charm sometimes holds for 5 minutes. Other times it holds for 5 seconds.' [note: that was about the L12 spell even!]

'Charm soloing is very dangerous now, and if you do choose to fight this way, it's important to consider this factor--if the average charm is 2.5 minutes (reasonable with my experience), can your pet finish the fight with your pull in that time? At one point in charm soloing, about 40 to 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke. You will find with the colossal increases in total hit points of the mobs, even the heavy hitting charmed pets have trouble finishing a fight in under three minutes. Dealing with a charm break is practically expected at this point, unless you are able to locate a set of low hit point mobs that will carve each other up quickly. I no longer recommend using slow on the enemy mob, as you will rarely hold a pet that can survive two fights in a row, and losing your pet can often mean zoning because you don't have the mana to nuke finish a mob. Successful charm soloing usually involves a pair of mobs spawning together, rooting one, charming the other and letting them battle it out, doing your best to make sure your pet barely wins, allowing you to break charm and have a fleeing mob left to finish off with nukes. You may even consider hasting your pet, to make for a reliable kill time. If you choose this route, then I suggest slowing the enemy, and going for a two mob kill before charm breaks. A strong haste is often enough to pull this off, but you can go from full health with Rune V up to very dead in seconds in this situation.'

So, here we have:

1) He could kill 2 L50 mobs reasonably frequently with charm if he hasted the pet. A L48-50 Sarnak Myrmidon has ~10K hp. I remember parsing it once, and it did about 100 dps with DW and haste, so probably 50 base dps and 75 with haste. 2 of them would be 20K hps @ 75 dps or 250 seconds plus 10-20 seconds to find mob #2. This would require a 4.5 minute charm. Without haste, it would require 400 seconds or 6.5 minutes.

2) He could kill 2 L40-45 mobs reasonably frequently with charm without haste at L50. A L44 Lava Duct Crawler has ~4.5K hp and does maybe 40dps without haste. That gives us 225 seconds, or just under 4 minutes of fighting time.

3) He claims the 'average charm' is 2.5 minutes. I assume this is counting all the breaks. I don't trust this as much as the calculations since we humans are very bad at averaging this kind of stuff in our heads.

So what I get from the guide is that at 50+, on mobs 5-10 levels below the enchanter, with tash but without malo, charm should last 4-5 minutes fairly frequently, break early some of the time (maybe 20-25% of the time), and generally break before 5-7 minutes.

If you believe in Xornn's memory over raw calculations, you get a 3-4 minute charm fairly frequently, with some early breaks, and the occasional 5-6 minute charm, which works out to an average of 2.5 minutes.

I'm not sure how you derived 1) and 2) from those quotes. I'm guessing it was this:

At one point in charm soloing, about 40 to 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke. You will find with the colossal increases in total hit points of the mobs, even the heavy hitting charmed pets have trouble finishing a fight in under three minutes.

When I read that, I interpret it as:
"When charm soloing as an enchanter between levels 40 and 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke."

Which would be much more reasonable regarding his 2.5 - 3 minute standard charm duration if he's soloing low-mid dark blues.

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure how you derived 1) and 2) from those quotes. I'm guessing it was this:



When I read that, I interpret it as:
"When charm soloing as an enchanter between levels 40 and 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke."

Which would be much more reasonable regarding his 2.5 - 3 minute standard charm duration if he's soloing low-mid dark blues.

Remember 1 thing : First charming at low lv is more dangerous and thus charm breaking will occure more often due to the fact the a blue mob will be within the range of 1 to 6 level below you.

At higher lv charm is holding more steady due to the fact that a blue mob range from 1- 12 lv below you. a good exemple of that is sebilis.A lv 55 enchanter charming a dar knight wich is lv 44-49 make the duration of the spell more realible. That is why it is often goes up to the full duration.
http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.html?id=5013

When i tested charm in beta i was soloing in sebilis with a lv 50 enchanter and i couldnt solo at all because charm was breaking too often. Yes i could kill a few mob but the risk was too great to make solo viable.

It eventually became more realible around lv 52 and higher.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure how you derived 1) and 2) from those quotes. I'm guessing it was this:



When I read that, I interpret it as:
"When charm soloing as an enchanter between levels 40 and 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke."

Which would be much more reasonable regarding his 2.5 - 3 minute standard charm duration if he's soloing low-mid dark blues.

Well I guessed a bit higher in level because a) from 45-50 is when mob HPs start to take off. A L45 mob only has 4k HP, a L50 mob has 10k, while the damage they do does not increase proportionally. So its right around then that charmed pets would have a hard time finishing fights. Second, even a hasted L45 mob is just not that damaging to an L55 enchanter, especially when its not dual wielding.

But we can argue the details. I just wanted to get the ball rolling with actual evidence rather than whining from enchanters and hating from the haters. It's a simple method of calculating charm durations rather than 'oh I remember this'. I like mathematics a lot more than vague memories.

[Brain]

Originally Posted by Haynar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In classic, everyone did not know that cha was vital to charm, along with tash and malo on the mob.

So if you can come up with a way to make everyone stupid, and not know that info, let me know how to implement it.

That's not the point, why not just go create a new game? This isn't classic, this is 2011.

Kanras - as we've stated many times: happenings on this server will not mock classic experiences, it's impossible.

-We know what stat(s) to stack this time around
-Raid leaders / Guilds know the MOST EFFECTIVE strategy for raid mobs (if that involves charming, then so be it)
-Because of all this established knowledge, our experiences on this server should be EASIER, FASTER and PREDICTABLE. Why in the world is anyone trying to change that? It's not a hard concept...

You shouldn't nerf a classes core ability because it was being used to down raid mobs, especially making it obsolete. This isn't classic, this is 2011. Hell yes charm is going to last longer than everyone remembers in classic, especially with 255 CHA......