new patch ench charm

[Blingx]

Originally Posted by chr0nix [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From http://replay.web.archive.org/200208...ell.asp?Id=121

With a mere 156 charisma, I've found this spell just lasts all day long. This weekend I used beguile a lot, leveled up to 39, and used this one a whole lot more. In dozens of charms, I had one instant break and one or two resists; every other time it lasted the length of the fight, and I was able to break it at my leisure with invis. In certain instances this is better than mez for group crowd control

And that is with the lvl 39 charm.

We need charm to work like it was in classic. I have never had a full duration on charm since the patch, even on green lvl 1-5's. (Some even broke within 1-2 minutes which is ridiculous)

On a scale from 1 to 10,

Charm before patch was a 10

After patch is a 1

Classic - 5

What this does:
This makes a valid argument for the level 39 charm Cajoling Whispers. Has anyone tested the level 39 charm Cajoling Whispers to see if it does or does not behave this way?

What this does not:
This does not make a valid argument for any charm other than the level 39 charm Cajoling Whispers.

[Beauregard]

Here is a thread from 2003 on FoH Forums. (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorp...expansion.html) On the first few pages they discuss a rather recent (luclin maybe) nerf to charm. That obviously won't happen here for 2 reasons.

1. We will never see Luclin besides looking in the night sky.

2. Charm could not possibly get any shittier.

[chr0nix]

Saw this post under the server patch and believe it belonged here.

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

http://wiki.project1999.org/index.ph...nchanter_Guide and
http://wiki.project1999.org/index.ph...er_Spell_Guide

These were stolen from a Tripod page. It looks like Xornn started in late kunark (he had breeze), hit 50 around Velious, and took a break until Luclin at 56.

Some quotes:

Under charm soloing he says 'honestly I usually get 2 fights in easy using attack slow as the edge'.

'That's all there is to it, really. Charm sometimes holds for 5 minutes. Other times it holds for 5 seconds.' [note: that was about the L12 spell even!]

'Charm soloing is very dangerous now, and if you do choose to fight this way, it's important to consider this factor--if the average charm is 2.5 minutes (reasonable with my experience), can your pet finish the fight with your pull in that time? At one point in charm soloing, about 40 to 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke. You will find with the colossal increases in total hit points of the mobs, even the heavy hitting charmed pets have trouble finishing a fight in under three minutes. Dealing with a charm break is practically expected at this point, unless you are able to locate a set of low hit point mobs that will carve each other up quickly. I no longer recommend using slow on the enemy mob, as you will rarely hold a pet that can survive two fights in a row, and losing your pet can often mean zoning because you don't have the mana to nuke finish a mob. Successful charm soloing usually involves a pair of mobs spawning together, rooting one, charming the other and letting them battle it out, doing your best to make sure your pet barely wins, allowing you to break charm and have a fleeing mob left to finish off with nukes. You may even consider hasting your pet, to make for a reliable kill time. If you choose this route, then I suggest slowing the enemy, and going for a two mob kill before charm breaks. A strong haste is often enough to pull this off, but you can go from full health with Rune V up to very dead in seconds in this situation.'

So, here we have:

1) He could kill 2 L50 mobs reasonably frequently with charm if he hasted the pet. A L48-50 Sarnak Myrmidon has ~10K hp. I remember parsing it once, and it did about 100 dps with DW and haste, so probably 50 base dps and 75 with haste. 2 of them would be 20K hps @ 75 dps or 250 seconds plus 10-20 seconds to find mob #2. This would require a 4.5 minute charm. Without haste, it would require 400 seconds or 6.5 minutes.

2) He could kill 2 L40-45 mobs reasonably frequently with charm without haste at L50. A L44 Lava Duct Crawler has ~4.5K hp and does maybe 40dps without haste. That gives us 225 seconds, or just under 4 minutes of fighting time.

3) He claims the 'average charm' is 2.5 minutes. I assume this is counting all the breaks. I don't trust this as much as the calculations since we humans are very bad at averaging this kind of stuff in our heads.

So what I get from the guide is that at 50+, on mobs 5-10 levels below the enchanter, with tash but without malo, charm should last 4-5 minutes fairly frequently, break early some of the time (maybe 20-25% of the time), and generally break before 5-7 minutes.

If you believe in Xornn's memory over raw calculations, you get a 3-4 minute charm fairly frequently, with some early breaks, and the occasional 5-6 minute charm, which works out to an average of 2.5 minutes.

This is somewhat less duration than charm before patch, but clearly more than we are getting now. Kind of amazingly, I actually agree with Verant's balancing there. Keep in mind that the risk of charm soloing with a hasted L49 pet is really, really high. As he says, 1 bash = dead enchanter.

P.S.

With all that said, I had a great time in Sebilis last night with TMO (their reputation on this board seems totally undeserved) doing stuns and slows. So I am still enjoying my enchanter, even without my froggy pets. And if you guys can find better evidence that the current charm is classic, I'm not going to ragequit.

[Blingx]

Originally Posted by chr0nix [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Saw this post under the server patch and believe it belonged here.

On the same page under solo tactics for charm...

You will have horrible charm durations. You will be chased to zone or die horribly. You will get a train on you that you can't do anything about.

That's the only secret to charm solo, really...

1. Gain control.
2. Regain control.
3. Regain control...

Best case scenario break, the pet rushes you and the other mob is rooted.

[Splorf22]

Obviously charm will break. The question is how often. I just posted evidence that charm soloing was a viable technique in classic. For it to be a viable technique, it has to have a certain minimum duration based on how long mobs take to kill each other, and it has to hit that minimum duration reasonably often (say at least 60-80% of the time). It's just obvious that current charm durations aren't classic; it's equally obvious that prepatch they were too high.

[Throb]

I can't find the post now, but recall a dev posting the reason for the nerf was to make sure charm breaks randomly. The problem with that reasoning is that it already did before the nerf. Sure sometimes it lasted max duration with tash/malo, but I can distinctly remember some insta breaks and random 1-2 min breaks, even with properly debuffed mobs and 235+ charisma. So you guys have fixed a problem that didn't exist, and in effect you have rendered an entire spell line nearly useless.

[Haynar]

Originally Posted by Throb [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can't find the post now, but recall a dev posting the reason for the nerf was to make sure charm breaks randomly. The problem with that reasoning is that it already did before the nerf. Sure sometimes it lasted max duration with tash/malo, but I can distinctly remember some insta breaks and random 1-2 min breaks, even with properly debuffed mobs and 235+ charisma. So you guys have fixed a problem that didn't exist, and in effect you have rendered an entire spell line nearly useless.

I have not looked at the changes. But that is how it was intended before. If the mob was tashed, malo'd, charm would often last the duration. The big issues, were the consequences when charm would break.

Charm should cause wipes on raids if used. Charm should be useable to solo. Charm should be dangerous in groups, but useable if you keep the mob snared, tashed, and malo'd.

I don't know how to fix the issue, with charm being a primary dps method on raids.

Maybe charmed mobs should run off randomly in wrong directions and bring back trains, if their master is not close enough?

There are so many things that could be explored.

[Blingx]

Originally Posted by Beauregard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is a thread from 2003 on FoH Forums. (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorp...expansion.html) On the first few pages they discuss a rather recent (LoY maybe) nerf to charm. That obviously won't happen here for 2 reasons.

1. We will never see Ykesha.

2. My ability to research has gotten worse(-1).

FTFY

February 25, 2003 - LoY
December 4, 2001 - SOL