Returning - absolutely torn. Mage or necro?

[Troxx]

-125/tick heal over time isn’t mediocre. I stopped trying to dispel and just tap over time heal it back (not hard or really that mana taxing)
-the snare is perfectly functional, i generally use 2nd lowest
-ghetto mez is not meant to replace full mez, it’s a side-bar perk that helps with cc along with 3 minute root. I’ve never had a problem with resists
-sustained dps low? Bottom??? Rofl, no. Properly buffed Rog pet alone puts out comparable dps to a mid-50s monk and is better by itself than most rangers/warriors. When not charming that pet is always there and always icing on the cake.
-burst burn dps unless you can use undead nuke is meh but with lich, nuke over time potential is actually higher than mage Druid or wizard

Necro played properly is a class with medium high tier sustained dps and the ability to cc root or mez in a pinch. Additionally — trivially easy ability to permanently sustain 125/tick heal and just tap back health with a fast-ish tap over time.

Necro dps (pet + nukes/taps) is actually quite good.

[Troxx]

Regarding nuke potential - compare high level mage vs high level necro

Mage:
-best conjuration nuke is 3.4 dmg per mana if conj spec (825 dmg)
-20 mana/tick medding
-up to 49-51 mana/tick medding with ALL buffs (not likely gonna happen often)
-benefits from c2 (necro doesn’t) if present

Assume you manage to hit all med ticks to keep math simple. Every lost med tick favors the necro.

Med = 200 mana/min = 680 damage/min (
C2 = 310 mana/min = 1054 dmg/min
Add POTG = 370 mana/min = 1258 dmg/min
Add bard = 490 mana/min = 1666 dmg/min


Necro:
-non-undead nuke (evoc) if alteration spec is 2.4 dmg per mana
-undead nuke if alteration spec 2.9 dmg per mana
-20 med a tick
- +20 mana/tick 49 lich vs +34/tick demi lich
-doesn’t benefit c2
- +2 mana tick on rune

Lich vs standard mob (vs undead):

Med + self buffs = 420 mana/min = 1008 (1218) dmg/min
Add POTG = 480mana/min = 1152 (1392) dmg/min
Add bard = 600 mana/min = 1446 (1740) dmg/min

Demi lich vs standard mob (vs undead)

Med + self buffs = 560 mana/min = 1344 (1624) dmg/min
Add POTG = 620 mana/min = 1488 (1798) dmg/min
Add bard = 740 mana/min = 1776 (2146) dmg/min

For mage this works out to a dps range of 11.3-26.76 dps averaged over time in a chain pulling group with no down time. Higher functional dps if not literally always killing.

For necro this works out to a dps range of 16.8-29.6 (20.3-35.8) dps averaged over time in a chain pulling group with no down time. Higher functional dps if not literally always killing.

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Discussion:

This is simply a comparison of DD damage potential. It does not address the power discrepancy between pets (mage obviously better). Necro rogue pet in seb tends to hover in the 45-55 sustained dps range. 57 earth pet (better dmg than 54 water) hovers in the 60-70 sustained dps range. Mage also have potent DS which is hugely efficient dmg/mana. Necro? Depending on tank aggro and length of fight necro dots are a lot more efficient and there are several short dots that still work out better on fights in seb and in some groups where mobs die slow enough to make them worthwhile.

So yeah - even without charm necro pet + nukes are nowhere near bottom dps. My pet alone in my last group was putting out roughly the same dps as the 58 epic/tstaff monk with shaman buffs and 86% buffed haste who was pulling for us. I added about another 15-20 dps on top of that between tap dots and nukes vs non undead - but I was also busy healing and managing cc or I could have pumped out more.

Necros have a strong toolkit.

Fun class.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Troxx

My pet alone in my last group was putting out roughly the same dps as the 58 epic/tstaff monk

It sounds like you are basing your conclusions on a mid 50s xp group. Necros aren't very gear dependent, so they work pretty well there. I haven't leveled a P99 toon in quite some time, so I'm thinking about something like the myconid spore king or Halls of Testing with L60 characters. And Necro just doesn't keep up there.

Even in Kunark I was usually hitting 70 dps on my Monk at the spore king, with capped strength and haste being the main difference. In Velious that's up to maybe 95, and will be pushing 110 if the 2HB upgrades and triple attack ever go in.

Meanwhile the Necro is getting 50% resists on anything not a lifetap or lure dot and the skeleton is struggling with the higher AC. If you happen to be rolling PAL/SHM/NEC or similar then you have time for your lure dots to tick and you might hit the damage of a Kunark monk. In a full group moving quickly you are stuck with Touch of Night at under 2:1 (at least you have the extra HP to keep shadowbond up) and are probably in the 60ish dps range, which is about comparable to a Kunark Ranger or Warrior and well behind the Velious versions.

You are of course welcome to post some parse from your necro in a higher level area proving me wrong.

[Troxx]

Have you played a high level necro at spore king? I have. Next time I’m there I’ll fetch parses. Those mobs live long enough that dots (several of which have big negative resist mods on them) are viable — unless you’ve got velious raid geared melee slumming in a kunark dungeon they are woefully overgeared for or have a haste quadding enchanter pet. 70+ combined dps would not be a challenge there.

The pets struggle less with higher ac than I think you appreciate - especially if there’s a shaman or Druid there to cast a str buff.

PS: trying to use your velious raid geared monk as some baseline/metric to determine who is “bottom sustained dps” is amusing. The raid scene is a different monster altogether. As you’ve already pointed out, casters do not scale well with endgame gear - but that’s not really relevant for 99.9% of the game.

[Vigilance]

Been farting around on a Necro and having fun with it. Doing the Qeynos area which I haven't done before. Gnoll fangs are ridiculous xp. Already up to level 9.

I made a Human/Bertoxx because why not. Don't care about optimization and wanted to do something different.

I was a little concerned doing the Gnoll turn in might trash my faction with my Guild but even though I've turned in probably 30-40 they still are Amiable. I feel like it would take a ton to get them aggro at me. I'll probably be out of that area long before then.

I will say it's kinda mana intensive to out dps the pet sometimes at low levels. Sometimes I can't tell if it's better to just be constantly fighting with the pet and out dps it when I actually have mana and just eat the xp loss, or whether I should be medding up and taking a few fights here and there when I have the mana to out dps the pet. The advantage to the former is the pet mostly wrecks blue cons right now so I can have it constantly fighting as long as there's spawns. And I can still get full xp on some of them when I have the mana to out dps it. I also almost feel like quantity is preferred if I'm in a quest drop area like Blackburrow because the more kills the more fangs. Xp is almost secondary to how many fangs I can get.

Not sure what the next solo spot will be though. I'd think BB will good til around 12ish. I don't want to go over to unrest etc, prefer to stay out here and try this area because I've never leveled here before. Also I prefer to solo since I don't play a ton. I'd guess the Karanas are the next spot but I'll have to figure out exactly where and what to fight. I do enjoy doing quest turn ins, so if I could find an area to kill stuff and get quest turn ins that'd be cool.

[Vigilance]

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Gnoll Fang quest only negatively affects Corrupt Guards and Rogue Guild faction, I believe. So you should be fine. I was fine on my Bertox SK.

You could do the Gnoll Fangs up to 14/15ish, really. That's what I usually do. By then you get burned out anyway. I've even heard of people going until their early 20s.

At around 14 or 15, I do Bandit Sash quest in West Karana.

I think this quest trashes Bloodsabers faction though, so you may want to steer clear of it.

Also, when you're 16 you get Hungry Earth, so you can root rot undead. I usually root rot and then send the pet in at around 49% HP. That's one way to control pet dps

Hm yeah probably want to avoid sashes then. What level are lightstones? I feel like that's one people do a lot that I've never done.

And root rotting undead sounds like a plan for sure. I've tried fear kiting a little bit when I'm outdoors right now, but it's obscenely mana intensive. Casting fear and two dots is practically half my mana pool, and Engulfing Darkness gets resisted all the time too.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have you played a high level necro at spore king? I have. Next time I’m there I’ll fetch parses. Those mobs live long enough that dots (several of which have big negative resist mods on them) are viable — unless you’ve got velious raid geared melee slumming in a kunark dungeon they are woefully overgeared for or have a haste quadding enchanter pet. 70+ combined dps would not be a challenge there.

So we agree. A trio (or a very bad full group) gives necros time to use the lure dots and hit 70 dps, which is Kunark monk level. In a solid full group, it's touch of night and 60 dps.

Originally Posted by Troxx

trying to use your velious raid geared monk as some baseline/metric to determine who is “bottom sustained dps” is amusing and not really relevant for 99.9% of the game.

Judging by your signature, you spend most of your EQ time leveling in Kunark dungeons with Coldain level gear. That's of course your choice, but personally I have always preferred to spend my time doing the more available high level content with low numbers. I'm not going to leave my Monk AFK in the EC tunnel because of your sense of propriety. Also, it really isn't that hard to farm up the money to buy a ST key and 2H primal from Aftermath (perhaps they will be looking to build more guild funds with Bellringer in town). Throw in a pair of Wu's Fists of Mastery and the Monk is leaving the Necro in the dust.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So we agree. A trio (or a very bad full group) gives necros time to use the lure dots and hit 70 dps, which is Kunark monk level. In a solid full group, it's touch of night and 60 dps.

Oh jesus christ. Do I have to spell it out for you?? In high level areas with summoned pet is ~50dps (more with shaman/druid str ... and a bit more with mage haste mask summon). A necro focused on nothing but dps and using the *worst* damage/mana ratio nukes (taps ie touch of night at 2 dmg per mana with alteration spec) at level 60 with NO external mana regen buffs (with demi lich 560 mana/min -- 18.66dps) is 68.67 dps. That is a worst case scenario {doesn't exist} where a necro can do nothing but lifetap with DD lifetaps and fall back on pet dps. This is a level 60 necro with *NOT* kunark BIS raid gear (much less velious raid gear), no POTG, no bard ... and literally doing nothing but casting level 59 touch of night as mana permits. This also assumes there is (literally) zero down time where you can get an extra mana tick or 2. It also assumes that there is no feasible opportunity to use a higher dmg/mana ratio nuke/dot/whatever ... just tap. Even the, the necro (casting only those shitty taps) has ample ability to heal any target for 125/tick, which no other raw dps class can do.

This scenario does not exist, and your inexperience playing this class is showing badly (very badly) right now. Necros are one of those hidden gems.

Give that necro the ability to use dots (or the not worst dmg/mana spell line) ... and you start to see the real picture.

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Judging by your signature, you spend most of your EQ time leveling in Kunark dungeons with Coldain level gear.

I've been overseas deployed with the US military for 6 years. Choice? Sure (kinda), but I've got a decade of raiding bleeding edge EQ content under my belt prior to that from Velious through 2011. As far as p99 goes, I won't sacrifice any amount of my real life QOL (quality of life) to batphone anything at 3am to farm crusty content on an emulated server. Does that make logic any less ... logical? It's math man.

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's of course your choice, but personally I have always preferred to spend my time doing the more available high level content with low numbers.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Raev

Aftermath? Doing high level content with low numbers?

/chortle

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not going to leave my Monk AFK in the EC tunnel because of your sense of propriety.

Nobody asked you to. You're just wrong on this topic.

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Throw in a pair of Wu's Fists of Mastery and the Monk is leaving the Necro in the dust.

I've grouped with a high level monk with 2x Wu's Fists of Mastery. Necro with pet + nukes/taps/dots still beat their total damage done ... oh and I was healing 125/tick and CC'ing while doing all of the above.

Sorry man, but you're just flat_fucking_wrong.

But let's go back to this:

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even in Kunark I was usually hitting 70 dps on my Monk at the spore king, with capped strength and haste being the main difference. In Velious that's up to maybe 95, and will be pushing 110 if the 2HB upgrades and triple attack ever go in.

My 58 mage in the highest areas of Seb etc averages about 120dps under realistic conditions (ie there is not always a mob in camp **all the time** not allowing for any between mob meditating). This doesn't factor in the DS on the tank or the rods I drop on clerics, just a max summoned 57 earth pet + my own nukes. I imagine level 60 water pet + nukes will be quite a lot better in this regards.

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Your velious raid geared (Abashi Rod) monk, parses 26% less now and will parse 10% lower after chardok patch on old kunark group content. If you can manage to chain pull for that seb king group where there is literally no down time, you might keep up with my mage. If there is competent charming chanter, well ... then we both lose.

Does that make a velious raid geared monk not worth it? Of course not. Hell no. Point is - different classes/archetypes ... different jobs. Monks make excellent pullers, tanks, tank + puller ... especially when they are over-geared for the content. My necro can't do that. My mage can't either. My monk can. That's what makes the monk worthwhile.

Necro are (whether you will admit it or not) a medium high sustained dps class that brings CC, heals, rezzes (emergency) and twitches to the table. Raid geared necros compared to raid geared melee fall behind, but that's a small (really small) portion of the EQ that P99 offers us.

I've leveled (without PL) a bunch of classes to 58+. I parse everything along the way. My mage and my necro put out a LOT more damage than my 59 epic/fungi/tstaff monk ... but they don't replace the job my monk can do.

[Troxx]

PS: raid fights are a different discussion. Pets depending on the fight cause more problems and might not be summoned. Higher level mobs = more resists. In these scenarios both mages and necros have different (but still important) jobs.

But that isn’t the input the OP was asking for.

[Para99]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My 58 mage in the highest areas of Seb etc averages about 120dps under realistic conditions (ie there is not always a mob in camp **all the time** not allowing for any between mob meditating).

I'm not saying this isn't true because I've never played a mage and I don't hang out with many mages, but is this with the mage chain casting nukes the entire fight? In my experience, an average level 50 charmed Kunark warrior mob with VOG will average around 120 DPS against say a 53 mob.

If the wiki is correct the 57 earth pet hits for max 70 which is exactly half of a level 50 Kunark mob and a max level of 48 so it would land less hits, I assume most of the DPS is nukes?