40 day raid ban

[loramin]

Originally Posted by mefdinkins [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've seen a lot of players say, "this suspension really sends a message." I never really understand what that message is. Some people say the message is "TMO needs to be off the server" or "Awakened has to change it's leader" or "it's time for a rotation" or "AM+AW have to work out their own beefs instead of bothering the GMs." Whatever the message has been, it's clearly been missed by a large population of P99.

Heh, to me that's low hanging fruit: the message seems pretty clearly to be "play by the rules."

Also, I don't think it gets missed by everyone: 40 days off tends to make people pay attention to messages.

[Moerne]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Heh, to me that's low hanging fruit: the message seems pretty clearly to be "play by the rules."

I've never raided with the A/A's, so I can't speak to what happens in NTOV, but I can tell you that even for the casual raiding guilds this can still be a problem, and you can't just simplify it down to "play by the rules". I'll give you an example of a situation we encountered when I was an officer in Paradox.

We were in Fear, contesting golem pops with another guild who will not be mentioned because the drama isn't needed. They made the FTE on the golem, but their puller got turned around, and pulled it into our camp thinking it was his. We were on the same wall, but not all that close to each other. Not even in los. Neither group had intentionally positioned themselves to be a problem for the other. The golem began rampaging through our ranks, and we killed it rather than let it wipe us.

This was a situation where mistakes were clearly made on both sides. But nothing was done intentionally, and there weren't a lot of options available. The puller's only option was Don't Make a Mistake - you've already agreed that's not exactly a viable option.

Our raid force's only option was Let The Mob Wipe Us. Well, in the heat of the moment that's just not something that's easy to do, especially when no one is sure of what's happening, where this mob came from, or why it's suddenly killing us.

So mistakes were made on both sides. Luckily, neither guild wanted a suspension over one golem, and we were able to work it out. But a suspension is what would likely have happened had it gone to GM resolution, and it wouldn't have been because of bad leadership choices, or because people were trying to get away with breaking the rules.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Moerne [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've never raided with the A/A's, so I can't speak to what happens in NTOV, but I can tell you that even for the casual raiding guilds this can still be a problem, and you can't just simplify it down to "play by the rules". I'll give you an example of a situation we encountered when I was an officer in Paradox.

We were in Fear, contesting golem pops with another guild who will not be mentioned because the drama isn't needed. They made the FTE on the golem, but their puller got turned around, and pulled it into our camp thinking it was his. We were on the same wall, but not all that close to each other. Not even in los. Neither group had intentionally positioned themselves to be a problem for the other. The golem began rampaging through our ranks, and we killed it rather than let it wipe us.

This was a situation where mistakes were clearly made on both sides. But nothing was done intentionally, and there weren't a lot of options available. The puller's only option was Don't Make a Mistake - you've already agreed that's not exactly a viable option.

Our raid force's only option was Let The Mob Wipe Us. Well, in the heat of the moment that's just not something that's easy to do, especially when no one is sure of what's happening, where this mob came from, or why it's suddenly killing us.

So mistakes were made on both sides. Luckily, neither guild wanted a suspension over one golem, and we were able to work it out. But a suspension is what would likely have happened had it gone to GM resolution, and it wouldn't have been because of bad leadership choices, or because people were trying to get away with breaking the rules.

So I 100% agree with the vast majority of your post. Accidents happen, people are human, and those accidents can wind up looking like possible malicious acts.

BUT, the staff aren't mindless robots, so I 100% disagree that:

Originally Posted by Moerne [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

a suspension is what would likely have happened had it gone to GM resolution

If Paradox had no history of recent guild drama, and all they did was kill one mob that someone else pulled in to their camp, I would be shocked if the staff suspended the guild. Honestly I'd be surprised if the other guild got a suspension (again, assuming their whistle was otherwise clean).

Let's look at the actual rules:

Intentional training will be severely disciplined.

"Intentional"

7. You may not harass others.

Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them. As harassment can take many forms, the P99CSR involved will make a determination as to whether or not a "reasonable person" would feel harassed and act accordingly.

8. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to::

-Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area.

- Deliberately blocking a doorway or narrow area so other players cannot get past.

- Refusing to cooperate with the other parties at a contested spawn site after having been instructed to do so by a P99CSR.

- Making excessive and inappropriate use of public channels of communications (/shout, /ooc, etc.).

- Intentionally causing excessive zone latency (creating excessive corpses, abusing spell effects, etc.).

- Causing intentional experience loss to other players (deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc.).

Again the word "intentional" is pretty paramount.

Q2: What exactly is Raid Disruption or Raid Interference?
A: Q3 and Q4 deal with what to do when this happens, but "Raid disruption" and "raid interference" are broad terms that cover a long list of things (near simultaneous FTE, training, kill-stealing, setting of AEs on other people, any violation of the posted raid rules, etc).

Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?
A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on.

Q4: If we feel another guild/party is breaking raid rules what actions may we take?
A: It is probably in your best interest to work raid disputes out among yourselves. The other option is the petition forum.

Q5: What about in cases where the mob dies before anyone is sure whom is at fault?
A: See Q4.
Note on Conceding / Forfeiting – You should concede a mob whenever your actions negatively impact another guild’s attempt at a mob, regardless of which zone the mob or the infraction take place in. Also, as far as what to concede / forfeit, if you still have a shot at the current mob, you should concede/forfeit that mob, if you do not still have a chance at the current mob, you should concede/forfeit the next two (it’s silly to try and concede a mob after you no longer have a real chance to kill that mob.

The only way the staff would ban either guild is for "raid disruption", but even then if you hadn't been able to settle things with the other guild you probably would have conceded the mob they trained on you right? Well there you go: by being a responsible guild you were at zero risk of suspension.

[matticas]

Originally Posted by Moerne [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've never raided with the A/A's, so I can't speak to what happens in NTOV, but I can tell you that even for the casual raiding guilds this can still be a problem, and you can't just simplify it down to "play by the rules". I'll give you an example of a situation we encountered when I was an officer in Paradox.

We were in Fear, contesting golem pops with another guild who will not be mentioned because the drama isn't needed. They made the FTE on the golem, but their puller got turned around, and pulled it into our camp thinking it was his. We were on the same wall, but not all that close to each other. Not even in los. Neither group had intentionally positioned themselves to be a problem for the other. The golem began rampaging through our ranks, and we killed it rather than let it wipe us.

This was a situation where mistakes were clearly made on both sides. But nothing was done intentionally, and there weren't a lot of options available. The puller's only option was Don't Make a Mistake - you've already agreed that's not exactly a viable option.

Our raid force's only option was Let The Mob Wipe Us. Well, in the heat of the moment that's just not something that's easy to do, especially when no one is sure of what's happening, where this mob came from, or why it's suddenly killing us.

So mistakes were made on both sides. Luckily, neither guild wanted a suspension over one golem, and we were able to work it out. But a suspension is what would likely have happened had it gone to GM resolution, and it wouldn't have been because of bad leadership choices, or because people were trying to get away with breaking the rules.

This, and imagine that happening often, pretty much always unintentionally. I know it's more fun to believe most of A/A are evil, but this has been my experience after nearly a year with AM. The chaos makes it fun, the chaos can also make it just plain awful. It all depends on how we respond and whether we make things right.