AW...whelp..here it goes again...

[Teako]

Originally Posted by planarity [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have zero credibility and nobody should ever believe anything you say.

You can believe whatever you want -- I'll just echo this sentiment to you:

Innocent raiders don't get suspended for 70 out of 77 days in a year. I'm the guy begging your leadership to quit getting 50-100 people raid banned for a quarter of a year for playing dirty. I'm the one sending screenshots of our written petitions to Eratani on skype pleading with him to not move forward because his guildmates don't deserve it.

You keep thinking <Awakened> plays squeaky clean, does nothing wrong, and drinking that Breaken koolaid.. As you sit raid suspended for 40 days, after just getting off a 30 raid suspension, and staring down the barrel of a pending 50 day raid suspension.

But yeah man, you're right.. It's *my* credibility that's shit. Notice none of your leadership is refuting *any* of the things I've said? It's because I have screenshots, skype logs, and was at the leadership meetings where they were discussed.

[Pheer]

Originally Posted by Teako [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But yeah man, you're right.. It's *my* credibility that's shit. Notice none of your leadership is refuting *any* of the things I've said? It's because I have screenshots, skype logs, and was at the leadership meetings where they were discussed.

people don't bother refuting a lot of the shit you say because you have Alex Jones level insanity with a dash of autism. Because even when some of the stuff you say might end up being true, still nobody wants to talk to you because the rest of the time you're screaming that the moon landing was fake and that lizards wearing human suits have infiltrated the government.

[planarity]

Originally Posted by Teako [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[bunch of unrelated garbage]

I guess this is as close as we'll come to an admission that you just literally make shit up and aren't afraid to lie about things that can easily be checked.

For the record, I think AW deserved a punishment for when we were careless and accidentally trained CSG. (30 days seems excessive, as many AM people pointed out, but whatever). I remember being surprised at how non-chalant about it AW was when it happened (this is what credibility looks like).

So what actually happened on this 2/25 vulak that warrants a 40-day suspension? As far as I tell can from my recollections and my logs, AM had already conceded it for something they (almost definitely accidentally) did on some other mob. We weren't very good--had a dirty pull and didn't handle it well. We wiped. Some AM people who were just poopsocking at the zonein died. One random non A/A person died (he asked for a rez and I rezzed him).

Being completely sincere here: What do I have wrong? what am I missing? If you let me know I am happy to corroborate it with my logs, even if it's damning of AW (again, credibility).
Obviously it will have to be someone other than Teako, since I'm curious about the actual chain of events as they happened in reality.

As a side note, let me extend the following olive branch for you Teako: If AM wipes to a mob and kills me while I am sitting at the tov zonein doing nothing (it has happened), and my bind point is literally right next to my corpse, I won't expect you to rez, buff, and heal me (I won't even ask once). And you don't even have to apologize. Pretty good, huh?? I feel like we're making progress already.

[Phatez]

Originally Posted by planarity [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess this is as close as we'll come to an admission that you just literally make shit up and aren't afraid to lie about things that can easily be checked.

For the record, I think AW deserved a punishment for when we were careless and accidentally trained CSG. (30 days seems excessive, as many AM people pointed out, but whatever). I remember being surprised at how non-chalant about it AW was when it happened (this is what credibility looks like).

So what actually happened on this 2/25 vulak that warrants a 40-day suspension? As far as I tell can from my recollections and my logs, AM had already conceded it for something they (almost definitely accidentally) did on some other mob. We weren't very good--had a dirty pull and didn't handle it well. We wiped. Some AM people who were just poopsocking at the zonein died. One random non A/A person died (he asked for a rez and I rezzed him).

Being completely sincere here: What do I have wrong? what am I missing? If you let me know I am happy to corroborate it with my logs, even if it's damning of AW (again, credibility).
Obviously it will have to be someone other than Teako, since I'm curious about the actual chain of events as they happened in reality.

As a side note, let me extend the following olive branch for you Teako: If AM wipes to a mob and kills me while I am sitting at the tov zonein doing nothing (it has happened), and my bind point is literally right next to my corpse, I won't expect you to rez, buff, and heal me (I won't even ask once). And you don't even have to apologize. Pretty good, huh?? I feel like we're making progress already.

If you guys wiped to the mob at zone in and trained it to zone in shouldn’t you have conceded it?

/ponder

[planarity]

Originally Posted by Phatez [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you guys wiped to the mob at zone in and trained it to zone in shouldn’t you have conceded it?

/ponder

(Keep in mind I am not being sarcastic, I took a 2 year break from the raid scene.)

Maybe? Is that the rule? If so then fine. But we were suspended for "training and wiping Aftermath's raid party", were you a "raid party" if it's just a few people poopsocking at the zonein between spawns?

If it prevented you guys from doing your own vulak pull/kill, that would be one thing. But you had already conceded it and afaik there weren't any other mobs up at the time. So we tried to kill the mob at the one spot where everyone kills mobs, and failed. then we pulled it again and killed it.

[Pezy]

Originally Posted by planarity [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess this is as close as we'll come to an admission that you just literally make shit up and aren't afraid to lie about things that can easily be checked.

For the record, I think AW deserved a punishment for when we were careless and accidentally trained CSG. (30 days seems excessive, as many AM people pointed out, but whatever). I remember being surprised at how non-chalant about it AW was when it happened (this is what credibility looks like).

So what actually happened on this 2/25 vulak that warrants a 40-day suspension? As far as I tell can from my recollections and my logs, AM had already conceded it for something they (almost definitely accidentally) did on some other mob. We weren't very good--had a dirty pull and didn't handle it well. We wiped. Some AM people who were just poopsocking at the zonein died. One random non A/A person died (he asked for a rez and I rezzed him).

Being completely sincere here: What do I have wrong? what am I missing? If you let me know I am happy to corroborate it with my logs, even if it's damning of AW (again, credibility).
Obviously it will have to be someone other than Teako, since I'm curious about the actual chain of events as they happened in reality.

As a side note, let me extend the following olive branch for you Teako: If AM wipes to a mob and kills me while I am sitting at the tov zonein doing nothing (it has happened), and my bind point is literally right next to my corpse, I won't expect you to rez, buff, and heal me (I won't even ask once). And you don't even have to apologize. Pretty good, huh?? I feel like we're making progress already.

Really, this is a pretty good example of what it's like to deal with your leadership from our side of the fence. Aftermath messed up a Vulak pull, which killed some small number of Awakened players. We then get browbeat by the usual suspects until we either concede two Vulak's or let it go to petitions. Detoxx, not wanting to risk the entire guild, accepts the terms and concedes two Vulak's for accidentally training a couple people.

One of the conceded Vulak's spawns, Awakened pulls it to the zone in, brings in a bunch of adds, and murders everyone, including a dozen or more (I think? Need confirmation here) members of Aftermath. Despite having just forced a concession of two Vulak's for literally doing the exact same thing, us having provided very clear and obvious fraps of them being at fault, Awakened's leadership tells us to kick rocks and suck it up.

I'm obviously a biased party here, but I try to be pretty objective about most things in life. I really don't think there are any double standards or favoritism happening here. Your leadership has always acted like this, and got away with it for a long time. Unfortunately a bunch of people are paying the price now for the actions of a few meatheads.

[planarity]

Originally Posted by Pezy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Really, this is a pretty good example of what it's like to deal with your leadership from our side of the fence. Aftermath messed up a Vulak pull, which killed some small number of Awakened players. We then get browbeat by the usual suspects until we either concede two Vulak's or let it go to petitions. Detoxx, not wanting to risk the entire guild, accepts the terms and concedes two Vulak's for accidentally training a couple people.

One of the conceded Vulak's spawns, Awakened pulls it to the zone in, brings in a bunch of adds, and murders everyone, including a dozen or more (I think? Need confirmation here) members of Aftermath. Despite having just forced a concession of two Vulak's for literally doing the exact same thing, us having provided very clear and obvious fraps of them being at fault, Awakened's leadership tells us to kick rocks and suck it up.

I'm obviously a biased party here, but I try to be pretty objective about most things in life. I really don't think there are any double standards or favoritism happening here. Your leadership has always acted like this, and got away with it for a long time. Unfortunately a bunch of people are paying the price now for the actions of a few meatheads.

OK well this first incident happened before I even joined, and I can see why that would be frustrating. I'm not here to defend the AW leadership, although I of course am biased too but I can try to see past that.

I guess I still see a qualitative difference between a) two guilds competing for a mob and one guild trains some members of the other guild (and both guilds need to be there because that's where everyone pulls all the mobs), and b) one guild has already conceded the mob and is just hanging around while the other guild fails a pull and trains them. It has a slightly different feel to it, but that could just entirely be my bias.

I think we are where we are because both sides have been vindictive and petty, but the way the GMs have this set up is just awful too: First because in that situation you had already conceded the mob so you didn't have anything to gain and thus no incentive to work something out, and second because our suspension is for "training and wiping Aftermath's raid party", so the message they are sending (remember, these suspensions are to send a message) is....if you try to kill a dragon at tov zonein and fail (with clearly no malice or cheating involved), that's an infraction worthy of sanction on par with the most severe this server has ever seen.

I'm sure some of this is my bias talking, but can it all be attributed to that?

[planarity]

Originally Posted by Pezy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One of the conceded Vulak's spawns, Awakened pulls it to the zone in, brings in a bunch of adds, and murders everyone...

It probably doesn't matter (does it?) but for the record vulak was single at the zonein. Part of the problem was that our only backup tank and some others had to go goaltend. I noticed in my logs that I never actually died or zoned out, because someone managed to blur vulak and then I was clear of aggro.

[Detoxx]

Originally Posted by planarity [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess this is as close as we'll come to an admission that you just literally make shit up and aren't afraid to lie about things that can easily be checked.

For the record, I think AW deserved a punishment for when we were careless and accidentally trained CSG. (30 days seems excessive, as many AM people pointed out, but whatever). I remember being surprised at how non-chalant about it AW was when it happened (this is what credibility looks like).

So what actually happened on this 2/25 vulak that warrants a 40-day suspension? As far as I tell can from my recollections and my logs, AM had already conceded it for something they (almost definitely accidentally) did on some other mob. We weren't very good--had a dirty pull and didn't handle it well. We wiped. Some AM people who were just poopsocking at the zonein died. One random non A/A person died (he asked for a rez and I rezzed him).

Being completely sincere here: What do I have wrong? what am I missing? If you let me know I am happy to corroborate it with my logs, even if it's damning of AW (again, credibility).
Obviously it will have to be someone other than Teako, since I'm curious about the actual chain of events as they happened in reality.

As a side note, let me extend the following olive branch for you Teako: If AM wipes to a mob and kills me while I am sitting at the tov zonein doing nothing (it has happened), and my bind point is literally right next to my corpse, I won't expect you to rez, buff, and heal me (I won't even ask once). And you don't even have to apologize. Pretty good, huh?? I feel like we're making progress already.

Ill answer this for you for some perspective. That Vulak was one of 2 we conceded to you guys. The reason those were conceded was because we had pulled in Vulak and it was a botched engage and we would up killing 2? maybe 3 of your members at the zone in. We had a solid argument that one of your druids, cant remember the name, was pet tracking and when Vulak got close, he sent his pet onto it. This made it so when we tried to pull Vulak out of the zone in to prevent a train, our efforts were futile as no matter what we did, it was coming back for that druid who sent his pet on it.

This lead to the whole "no petition agreement" being blown up within the first 3 disputes. The difference is I did all I could to make sure that it was worked out and the didn't want to risk it going to the staff because it was something that could go either way.

Keep this following note in mind: This particular Vulak, you had a max of 24 people log on, 4 clerics and 1 tank. You, in fact, realizing you didn't have a force to kill it, abandoned it and went to kill Golems and Draco in fear.

Fast forward to this current situation. You guys brought in a Vulak, trained us (not just 3 people but out entire raid force was wiped out) and wiped yourselves. I asked Eratani what was going to come of this incident as it is clearly written and a known fact that if you train a guild, it is against the rules. Theres no if, ands or buts to it. it is also a known fact that when you pull to the zone this is a risk you take.

The keyt difference between these 2 events, which are nearly identical, is that I did what I could to make it right and when I talked to Eratani about how to make it right for training us I got "what mobs did you lose?", "you couldn't even compete on this one" (keep my note above in mind), and finally, as Sedyt has said he openly said something to the sort of we aren't doing anything about this and will let it go to the GMs.

I hadn't even asked for a Vulak or anything. Its entirely possible that if he had just said "hey man, listen, were really sorry for training you and we will res and get you back up." I wouldn't even have petitioned it but instead I was met with their cocky, arrogant, we can do whatever we want attitude and this very attitude is coming back to haunt them.

I know Awakened will BP this post as soon as they see it to come and say how much of a lie it is and how terrible of a person I am but this post is 100% pure, unaltered fact. Take it for what its worth.

[topgun1027]

Originally Posted by Teako [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can believe whatever you want -- I'll just echo this sentiment to you:

Innocent raiders don't get suspended for 70 out of 77 days in a year. I'm the guy begging your leadership to quit getting 50-100 people raid banned for a quarter of a year for playing dirty. I'm the one sending screenshots of our written petitions to Eratani on skype pleading with him to not move forward because his guildmates don't deserve it.

You keep thinking <Awakened> plays squeaky clean, does nothing wrong, and drinking that Breaken koolaid.. As you sit raid suspended for 40 days, after just getting off a 30 raid suspension, and staring down the barrel of a pending 50 day raid suspension.

But yeah man, you're right.. It's *my* credibility that's shit. Notice none of your leadership is refuting *any* of the things I've said? It's because I have screenshots, skype logs, and was at the leadership meetings where they were discussed.

one guild has people in their pocket the other doesn't, interesting.