WTF is going on.

[President]

Originally Posted by Segoris [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will if you would quote the part you want explained. I never used the phrase "shit that can't be explained." My guess is you mean the one case where I could imagine someone being allowed back in a second time?

There was only one place in your post where you mentioned "can't be explained" in reference to IB, and an IB member is asking you to clarify. Put 2 and 2 together...

[Segoris]

Originally Posted by President [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There was only one place in your post where you mentioned "can't be explained" in reference to IB, and an IB member is asking you to clarify. Put 2 and 2 together...

Yeah I got it and then work beckoned, hence the delay on my response.

[pirscuered]

Meh, i'll quote it....


"But I've also seen some shit from IB that couldn't be explained in any other way but to suspect cheating."

edit: wow that was quick....

[karsten]

you do know that both rangers and druids have track, right satsui? just putting that out there


mythoxxus, i'll refer back to one of my previous posts basically highlighting the fact that A: you guys try to split hairs on rules instead of trying to be a better guild and B: you don't even know the rules and have, for example, called 30 minute timers on YOUR OWN GUILD. I'm all for having uniformity in terms of GM actions, but don't try and once again pull the "we're the only people who play by the rules" when it's been demonstrated that you don't.

[Segoris]

Originally Posted by karsten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you do know that both rangers and druids have track, right satsui? just putting that out there

I'm very well aware of that karsten, and it wouldn't solve the situations I've seen. In fact I'd say I've seen more IB trackers around then any other guild and give credit to their efforts, but it still doesn't explain situations of zoning in 15 mins before a spawn in a mostly cleared zone after leaving the zone a while beforehand.

[karsten]

you also called your own 30 minutes on nagafen after leapfrogging trannies, so, I'll offer to eat a 14 day ban for something you think i was a part of if you'll offer to eat one for breaking the rules too, sound good mytho?

satsui we had a tracker in there, we went back in when he said ct had popped, nothing really crazy or weird to explain

[Segoris]

Originally Posted by karsten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you also called your own 30 minutes on nagafen after leapfrogging trannies, so, I'll offer to eat a 14 day ban for something you think i was a part of if you'll offer to eat one for breaking the rules too, sound good mytho?

leapfrogging trannies? Bad, bad, band name imo!

Originally Posted by karsten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

satsui we had a tracker in there, we went back in when he said ct had popped, nothing really crazy or weird to explain

That time I remember you guys zoning in before the spawn happened. If that wasn't the case then that is awesome and I'm happy to hear that I'm wrong here. I'll rephrase one thing I said in my first post, I truly hope any claim of cheating is proven wrong so people can stop worrying about that and just play the damn game, which is why I don't mind being wrong here if that is the timeline. I remember it differently, is all.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by karsten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you also called your own 30 minutes on nagafen after leapfrogging trannies, so, I'll offer to eat a 14 day ban for something you think i was a part of if you'll offer to eat one for breaking the rules too, sound good mytho?

In the words of the great Rogean:

"Despite your belief you do not know all the facts. STOP Making judgement calls on half-assed information."

I think im getting good at this quote thing.
You have become better at trolling (1).

[karsten]

you do know you're well known for being the king of making assumptions based on incomplete information, yes?

also, the facts of what happened at nagafen aren't especially contested. your attempt to bend the rules in your favor is, just like it is in this case. in fact, if we're talking about consistency here, that's one thing that I know I can count on

[Wenai]

Originally Posted by Maximus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the words of the great Rogean:

"Despite your belief you do not know all the facts. STOP Making judgement calls on half-assed information."

I think im getting good at this quote thing.
You have become better at trolling (1).

I think you should read that quote yourself there bro. You are sitting here complaining about shit that you don't even know anything about. Your camp seems to have a severe lack of understanding of how the system works.

I have a few comments to make but I am really not going to respond again, so I start off with that disclaimer.

1. It honestly makes me laugh that in the first post that we, the development and GM team, are instantly accused of GM-favoritism towards Divinity (?). Seriously folks. Last week IB was on a complete tear claiming our favoritism towards Trans. [sarcasm] So I guess by about this time next week it will be IB's turn for the favortism? /laugh [/sarcasm].

Seriously folks please step back here and use some logic. Every one of these disputes has two opinions. In the end one of these opinions will be at least somewhat validated. This leaves the people of the other opinion as sad kittens. These sad kittens then come to the forums for a few days bitching and complaining about the way things are handled.

2. Short comment on this event in particular.

Members of Transcendence, Divinity and IB all confirmed that Trans was the first guild in the zone. No one has disputed that fact. Just because you are the first in the zone does not constitute you to get that raid target. If you are actively working towards that raid target, and another guild enters the zone and wishes to also engage that target, then the SECOND guild is to call a 30 minute timer on the first guild. This means that the secondary guild has 30 minutes to engage the raid target (Use some common sense here folks).

Here lies the problem with this individual situation. You do NOT get 30 minutes to kill the target. If you attempt to engage the target, or even engage creatures on the way to the target, and have a significant portion of your raid group die and forces you to stop and rez yourselves and recover, you lose your attempt. Consider your attempt null and void. Obviously deaths happen. I am not sitting here saying that if any raid member dies, they instantly lose their right to a target. I am saying that if you lose a significant portion of your raid and you are forced to completely halt your progress to the encounter to try and rez the majority of your guild, then you should consider yourself susceptible to a guild passing you.

This is the case that happened with Trans. We had members of Transcendence admitting to wiping in the process to Maestro. Under the rules of the rotation it would fall into this category:

If that raid fails then you are free to take your shot and so on.

Your raid failed on the way to your encounter. Which meaning effectively you lost your chance at the mob. There was a mutual understanding between Divinity and IB that Divinity was there first. Since you guys wiped in the process of reaching Maestro, Divinity effectively deserved the legal right to leapfrog you guys.

3. Learn the fucking rules. Seriously.

I keep seeing this stated over and over that "Transcendence called their 30 minute time to reserve the right to engage Maestro!" This is not how it works. It is pretty clearly laid out in the rules so I am going to quote the relevant portions below:

If a raid force is at the raid target and you begin gathering your own forces you are required to give the raid for that was there first a grace period of 30 minutes. Upon the arrival of your own raid force you must give them a 30 minute warning. If after 25 minutes they have not engaged the creature then you are free to give them a final 5 minute warning. After the 30 minutes are up you are free to engage the creature (Screenshots and logs of your attempted communication will be required).

It seems pretty clear to be. If your own force arrives at a target that is already occupied by another guild, you are required to give them a 30-minute warning to ENGAGE the creature. They get one shot. If they fail (as in completely wipe/camp) then you are free to engage before the 30 minute timer is up as seen in:

You must respect other players and raid forces. If a raid force is at a raid target before you are than you are not allowed to engage that monster before they take a shot at it (Within 30 minutes). If that raid fails then you are free to take your shot and so on.

The rules seem pretty cut and dry to me. But maybe that is because I was the one who wrote it up. If it will help to have a meeting with a member from each of the raiding guilds (or any other guild who desires to raid) to go over the rules and make sure people understand their rights. By all means contact myself and we can discuss it on IRC sometime.

3. As far as consistency with punishment goes: Every situation is an individual situation.

Since all the details have been made public in this thread by others (including the suspended player) I don't mind discussing the details of why a decision such as that is made.

-It is a raid target.
-It is a contested raid target.
-It was ninja-looted by a guild who had no right to the target.
-It was an attempt to take matters into their own hands to decide that if they didn't get the loot; no one did.

It was just a really stupid move, with an extreme malice intent. They were suspended (not perma-banned) for these reasons.

Every situation will be handled individually and have a lot of factors involved in the process. But like Rogean said: You DON'T know all the details, so don't act like you do. People make assumptions and then threads like these pop up.

So anyways that is all I really have to say. I am sure the flames will continue and the bitching will live on forever, but peace folks. See you in about 4 days when we re-hash the same bitching with a different guild being "victimized."

PS: Maestro. You guys are fighting over Maestro. Srsly?