What would be more DPS for my rogue? Upgrading my haste item or offhand?

[KorafRN]

VOG or gtfo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Muggens]

Originally Posted by KorafRN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

VOG or gtfo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

? if you're not max item hasted SoS or WR is better for BS refresh timer

[Lowako]

Originally Posted by HouseTargaryen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

any direction u go will work. eventually u will upgrade both. I would upgrade haste because selling your rbg for RBB will be a cheaper upgrade.
upgrading offhand will only increase your offhand dmg.
upgrading haste will increase your backstab, ragebringer and offhand dmg.

upgrading haste won't effect ragebringer or offhand damage (unless he is upgrading to 41% haste).

vog is generally the preferred haste even if you don't hit the cap without it, the value of ATK on this server is obscene.

here is some big nerd math numbers for backstab dps. keep in mind these numbers assume 100% accuracy, a 50% chance to double backstab (this seems to be close to the actual chance based on some parsing), a patchwerk style fight, and hitting backstab exactly on cooldown. Some of the average backstab damage numbers that I plug in are on the higher end of the spectrum as well, so keep that in mind. anywhere from 170-250 damage could be reasonable for average backstab based on mob AC/luck/mainhand damage.

In practice, you aren't going to be hitting backstab perfectly on cooldown, not only because of mobs moving etc, trying to avoid that bug where it eats the cooldown but you don't actually backstab etc, the ability coming off cooldown in between keypresses (as a side note, the fastest i was able to hit the backstab key is roughly 12 times per second, but only because 1 on my hotbar is also bound to E so i can alternate slamming the keys). Fight length also has tremendous impact on the value of a haste upgrade in regards to backstab timing.

number of backstab attempts per minute, 27% haste vs 36% haste
1min - 7.62 vs 8.16
2min - 15.25 vs 16.32
5min - 38.11 vs 40.8
1 hour - 457.4 vs 489.8

some average backstab damage from various parses (note: all of mine are using a 13 damage weapon, i believe luddo, mdk, and samila all use ragebringer for theirs)
draco - tev 247
cekenar - tev 173 | mdk - 223 | luddo - 250 | samila - 196
king group (myconids and various frogs) - tev 218 vs mdk 238

total backstab damage over 1 hour rbg vs cof - dps in parentheses ***I MADE AN ERROR HERE*** I forgot to include double backstab when doing these calcs. I put the corrected dps difference in brackets. most of the other numbers can be ignored.
220 avg dmg - 100540 (27.92) vs 107580 (29.88) - 1.96 [2.94] dps difference
250 avg dmg - 114250 (31.74) vs 122250 (33.96) - 2.22 [3.33] dps difference
300 avg dmg - 137100 (38.08) vs 146700 (40.75) - 2.72 [4.08] dps difference



number of backstab attempts per minute, 85% haste (rbg with vog) vs 94% haste (cof with vog)
1 - 11.09 vs 11.65
2 - 22.18 vs 23.30
5 - 55.45 vs 58.25
1 hour - 665.43 vs 699.03

total backstab damage over 1 hour - with vog, rbg vs cof (Includes the 50% double backstab chance)
220 avg dmg - 219450 (60.96) vs 230670 (64.08) - 3.12 dps difference
250 avg dmg - 249375 (69.27) vs 262125 (72.81) - 3.54 dps difference
300 avg dmg - 299250 (83.13) vs 314550 (87.38) - 4.25 dps difference

moving onward to offhand calculations, thankfully they are quite simple. these numbers don't factor in dual wield/double attack chance unfortunately.

average hit damage = (2 * Weapon_Base) + Bonus_Modifier + STR Modifier
offhand has a bonus modifier of 0, strength modifier is thought to be a multiplicative so (2*weapon_base*STRbonus) + bonus. as it stands, im pretty clueless as to what the STR bonus is so its being left out.

winters fury average hit = 26
winters fury average dps base = 11.304
winters fury average dps worn haste only = 15.825
winters fury average dps worn haste + vog = 22.375

exquisite velium spear average hit = 24
exquisite velium spear average dps base = 12 (.696 dps increase)
exquisite velium spear average dps worn haste only = 16.795 (.97 dps increase)
exquisite velium spear average dps worn haste + vog = 23.762 (1.387 dps increase)

TLDR; I was wrong, haste item wins in theory(only tested with CoF as the haste though), whereas an offhand weapon is likely to be slightly better or even in practice. both upgrades are relatively minimal, your best bet to increase DPS is to be luckier.

[Endonde]

Originally Posted by Lowako [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the value of ATK on this server is obscene

I've heard this from several rogues now but have never really seen any evidence to support it, I have seen plenty of rogues not using rage bringer pull consistently high damage. If atk is obscene I would think a +40 buff would win out.

I'd argue you aren't taking vog because the 20 Atk is obscene but because the 1-2% haste from shissar is negligible, plus for raiding you can just get a bard to haste cap you.

[Cecily]

10 atk should be +1% dps.

[Lowako]

Originally Posted by Endonde [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've heard this from several rogues now but have never really seen any evidence to support it, I have seen plenty of rogues not using rage bringer pull consistently high damage. If atk is obscene I would think a +40 buff would win out.

I'd argue you aren't taking vog because the 20 Atk is obscene but because the 1-2% haste from shissar is negligible, plus for raiding you can just get a bard to haste cap you.

taking vog is a combination of ATK being strong and the 2% weapon haste from other haste being quite minimal. An oddity with ragebringer is that although the effect is listed as being +40 atk, it seems to give +54 atk in game (that number could be off slightly, i remember it being higher than 40 though, yes i was STR capped with/without it equipped). This could just be a client display error, but other buffs seem to increase ATK on the character sheet by the correct amount.

you can still parse well with velious raid weapons equipped in offhand (claw of lightning, baton of flame, tunare whip all come to mind) but the benefit is pretty minimal. here is some more numerical vomit.

these numbers assume 36% backstab haste (which isn't accurate for claw obviously, you could add about 1 DPS to the final claw numbers if you wanted, although the benefit is probably smaller than that) as well as using a non-ragebringer primary like vyemm's fang or something.

with vog+weapon haste
rb avg dps no atk factored = 23.76
claw avg dps = 30.94

this is where things get a little abstract, if we assume that mainhand dps and backstab dps tend to be roughly equal(looking at various parses from different rogues this seems to be a realistic estimate), we could say that a dude using ragebringer (with no attack factored in) would do
64+64+23.76 dps, or 151.76 dps.

a dude using claw would do 64+64+30.94, or 158.9

obviously these numbers seem grossly inflated from reality because they don't factor in accuracy. normal hit rate seems to be between 65 and 70%, lets assume 65%.

rb(atk not factored) = 98.644 dps
claw = 103.285 dps

these numbers seem more in line with reality. because the eq client is odd and inconsistent, I included numbers for ragebringer at 40 atk and 54 atk. if cecily's 10 atk = 1% dps is correct, we end up with

rb(40 atk) = 102.590 dps
rb(54 atk) = 103.971 dps

basically the difference between the highest ratio offhand in the game and ragebringer is incredibly minimal, which is why I think baton or tunare whip would be better than claw, even though proc DPS is quite minimal as well. alternatively you could use ragebringer in offhand forever and not see any substantial loss. I could have made some errors in the math above as well as not having a perfect model, feel free to point out the flaws.

TLDR; rogue offhand upgrades provide minimal benefit to DPS, I wasted more time doing some rough and not entirely accurate math, luck makes getting fully accurate parse data nearly impossible in this game.

[Cecily]

Can you math me dragonspine rapier + Rage, Rage + Claw of Lightning, dragonspine + claw please?

I'm leaning towards Rapier + Rage as much as it'd pain me to bank Claw.

[Endonde]

Originally Posted by Lowako [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

taking vog is a combination of ATK being strong and the 2% weapon haste from other haste being quite minimal. An oddity with ragebringer is that although the effect is listed as being +40 atk, it seems to give +54 atk in game (that number could be off slightly, i remember it being higher than 40 though, yes i was STR capped with/without it equipped). This could just be a client display error, but other buffs seem to increase ATK on the character sheet by the correct amount.

you can still parse well with velious raid weapons equipped in offhand (claw of lightning, baton of flame, tunare whip all come to mind) but the benefit is pretty minimal. here is some more numerical vomit.

these numbers assume 36% backstab haste (which isn't accurate for claw obviously, you could add about 1 DPS to the final claw numbers if you wanted, although the benefit is probably smaller than that) as well as using a non-ragebringer primary like vyemm's fang or something.

with vog+weapon haste
rb avg dps no atk factored = 23.76
claw avg dps = 30.94

this is where things get a little abstract, if we assume that mainhand dps and backstab dps tend to be roughly equal(looking at various parses from different rogues this seems to be a realistic estimate), we could say that a dude using ragebringer (with no attack factored in) would do
64+64+23.76 dps, or 151.76 dps.

a dude using claw would do 64+64+30.94, or 158.9

obviously these numbers seem grossly inflated from reality because they don't factor in accuracy. normal hit rate seems to be between 65 and 70%, lets assume 65%.

rb(atk not factored) = 98.644 dps
claw = 103.285 dps

these numbers seem more in line with reality. because the eq client is odd and inconsistent, I included numbers for ragebringer at 40 atk and 54 atk. if cecily's 10 atk = 1% dps is correct, we end up with

rb(40 atk) = 102.590 dps
rb(54 atk) = 103.971 dps

basically the difference between the highest ratio offhand in the game and ragebringer is incredibly minimal, which is why I think baton or tunare whip would be better than claw, even though proc DPS is quite minimal as well. alternatively you could use ragebringer in offhand forever and not see any substantial loss. I could have made some errors in the math above as well as not having a perfect model, feel free to point out the flaws.

TLDR; rogue offhand upgrades provide minimal benefit to DPS, I wasted more time doing some rough and not entirely accurate math, luck makes getting fully accurate parse data nearly impossible in this game.

Could you show me a few logs showing the difference between offhand, mainhand, and Backstab dmg. I've been using double piercer for forever so I can't tell the difference between mainhand, and offhand dps, but the 40/40/20 split doesn't seem right to me looking at my parses.

[Cecily]

40 - 40 - 20 is my rule of thumb for estimating rogue damage. It varies +/- 10% or so on all of them. Here's some parses from this week. Rage + Claw on first two. Dragonspine + Claw on Velk. Claw does seems to account for 25%+ of my damage looking around at my parses. Might be something to be said for super nice offhand ratios.

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[cooler2442]

Well I ended up getting a Ter Dal Sai today so I won't be buying the Exquisite Velium Spear and instead saving for an RBB/CoF.