Open Letter to Nilbog & Co: Raid Item Nerfs

[Daldaen]

Nah the question I was posing wasn't the fact that bellycasters existed.

What I was suggesting was that the way EQ Calculates aggro, the "Add Aggro" check may have been performed AFTER the "In Belly Cast Range" check. Meaning, unlike a typical resisted spell, your spells cast from out of Belly Cast range do not generate any aggro when they resist. Which is how it currently functions on Live.

My suspicion is that this is how EQ has handled bellycasters all along, making it classic. If derpcake is right I would *imagine* there are some posts somewhere around 2002 where people talk about this strategy for permarooted ToV dragons, casting spells from far away to build aggro and then going in. Then some posts at a later date claiming it no longer works. I haven't found any such posts yet, though I've not looked very extensively I will admit.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah the question I was posing wasn't the fact that bellycasters existed.

What I was suggesting was that the way EQ Calculates aggro, the "Add Aggro" check may have been performed AFTER the "In Belly Cast Range" check. Meaning, unlike a typical resisted spell, your spells cast from out of Belly Cast range do not generate any aggro when they resist. Which is how it currently functions on Live.

My suspicion is that this is how EQ has handled bellycasters all along, making it classic. If derpcake is right I would *imagine* there are some posts somewhere around 2002 where people talk about this strategy for permarooted ToV dragons, casting spells from far away to build aggro and then going in. Then some posts at a later date claiming it no longer works. I haven't found any such posts yet, though I've not looked very extensively I will admit.

Earlier you mention the lazy agro / non-melee range casting would stop pulling dragons out of trains. Wouldn't raiders just resort to casting "Cancel Magic" line of spells to generate the agro to snap out of a train? If I understand you right, this would still generate agro outside of melee range since it is unresistable (I think it was mentioned this line of spells is unresistable, but I'm not exactly sure).

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah the question I was posing wasn't the fact that bellycasters existed.

What I was suggesting was that the way EQ Calculates aggro, the "Add Aggro" check may have been performed AFTER the "In Belly Cast Range" check. Meaning, unlike a typical resisted spell, your spells cast from out of Belly Cast range do not generate any aggro when they resist. Which is how it currently functions on Live.

My suspicion is that this is how EQ has handled bellycasters all along, making it classic. If derpcake is right I would *imagine* there are some posts somewhere around 2002 where people talk about this strategy for permarooted ToV dragons, casting spells from far away to build aggro and then going in. Then some posts at a later date claiming it no longer works. I haven't found any such posts yet, though I've not looked very extensively I will admit.

That would make sense working like that. Otherwise you could like you said generate insane aggro with non damaging spells before engaging. Would still probably pull dragons out of trains though since you did interact with it, like cancel magic or taunt - if dragon was pulled by proximity and not similiar spell / arrow etc.

[lurk]

I think thats a very interesting topic that you will never find proof for. Theres no doubt that guilds in luclin prebuilt agro on rooted mobs...ToV wasnt even rooted until luclin? and they were given call of the zero.

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by lurk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think thats a very interesting topic that you will never find proof for. Theres no doubt that guilds in luclin prebuilt agro on rooted mobs...ToV wasnt even rooted until luclin? and they were given call of the zero.

I don't like to use my memory cus it sucks but doing Srra I'm sure tank would use clickies before running in. Remember the pissed off Rhaags standing there eyeballing MA [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Lotta that s stuff wasn't widely known back in the day. If you are in a top guild you're not likely to give away the secrets that let your guild do what you do.

To lurk, I was in overlord channel, if you remember that one.

Also remember something from maybe the shamans crucible about initial aggro being capped. Example: shaman pulls with slow and it generates less aggro than it normally would.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Yuuvy The Destroyer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lotta that s stuff wasn't widely known back in the day. If you are in a top guild you're not likely to give away the secrets that let your guild do what you do.

To lurk, I was in overlord channel, if you remember that one.

Also remember something from maybe the shamans crucible about initial aggro being capped. Example: shaman pulls with slow and it generates less aggro than it normally would.

There also eventually became a cap on debuff aggro. IE all rebuffs generated only 400 Hate at cap. So a slow and flame lick were equivalent.

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There also eventually became a cap on debuff aggro. IE all rebuffs generated only 400 Hate at cap. So a slow and flame lick were equivalent.

I believe you. But it's hard to say when this took place. Many changes were not in patch notes.

[lurk]

Dispell is the lowest agro spell you could possibly cast. Even if a belly caster resisted your charm, you cannot claim it produces zero agro. I seriously doubt there was classic code that made belly caster resists different than regular. Even then, there is still some agro.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by lurk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dispell is the lowest agro spell you could possibly cast. Even if a belly caster resisted your charm, you cannot claim it produces zero agro. I seriously doubt there was classic code that made belly caster resists different than regular. Even then, there is still some agro.

Think about it from a code standpoint, the order in which the code performs calculation.. I'll give a classic example that I can prove.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...t=Bladestopper

When using a spell, the game begins the cast, then checks your inventory if you have sufficient reagents, then at the end of the cast either proceeds with the cast and then eats the reagent OR cancels the cast due to lack of reagent.

What happens with instant clickies: the spell instantly casts, so there isn't a casting phase to check for a reagent. So no reagent is consumed.

----

What I'm suggesting is similar for Belly Casters. The "Add X Hate" portion of the code due to spell casts occurs before the resist check (regular) is performed. We know this because All spells generate the same amount of aggro regardless of whether they land or are resisted. Snares that get resisted still pulls mobs out of trains. Likewise Concussions on immune mobs still reduce your aggro. The aggro total of the spell is frontloaded and occurs before the resist check.

But what I'm saying, is it is *possible* that the way the game checks against Belly Casters, that is the first check in the order the code checks for resist. And it occurs BEFORE the "Add X Hate" portion of the code. So because the code says nothing occurs after the Belly Caster check fails, it may not add any aggro because the code says that chain of calculation is done before it gets to the add aggro phase.