A Beginner's Guide to the P1999 Raid Scene?

[SirAlvarex]

For those saying the current raid scene doesn't replicate classic -- when this has been brought up in the past the returned argument is that this raid scene *does* emulate classic. It's just it emulates the servers that had the "best" raiding guilds who were always the first to complete content.

For example on Tunare EC tunnel was a wasteland -- we did all our trading in Greater Faydark (GFay). There also was, to my recollection, a rotation for raid targets amongst the top guilds. But that wasn't true for all servers and some of them were reported to be very cutthroat. P99 is emulating that cutthroat server because the effort to make it "nicer" would be fairly immense.

[fastboy21]

The basic "problem" is that classic raiding on live was horrible. The game lent itself to spawn camping by entire guilds (affectionately later called "poop socking" -- sounds pleasant), racing, kill stealing, training, bottle-necking progression (affectionately called "cock blocking" --again, sounds pleasant, right?) etc.

Live EQ never solved these problems until end-game PoP (INSTANCED POTIME). On **some servers** the competing guilds cooperated and entered into their own agreements because it was mutually beneficial, but the game mechanics and CS teams never solved them. In the end, it was only fixed by designing content that was hard to bottleneck or was actually instanced.

So...the "problem" here is that the server did what it was designed to do. The state of raiding on P99 is a FEATURE intentionally replicated and implemented by the designers.

There was an era in the server history where I thought the dev team had changed their philosophy on this. For those of you who weren't here yet, Rogean shut down all raiding for all guilds. He did this until they agreed to cooperate in a raiding system. The result was the class R and class C system. It wasn't a perfect system, but it was a milestone in p99's history. The commitment to the paradigm shift that caused raid reform here seems to have waned in recent times on the server.

Maybe the team decided on a change of heart and went back to their original design philosophy?

Maybe the team decided that enforcement was impossible with given resources and they gave up on it?

Personally, I think they were on the right road and they got off of it (for whatever reason), but that's just opinion. The current state of the server is what it is now...and I don't imagine it changing much. The one exception is that I hope they use p99 to beta test the systems they will hopefully implement on the reboot iteration of p99 whenever that happens.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There was an era in the server history where I thought the dev team had changed their philosophy on this. For those of you who weren't here yet, Rogean shut down all raiding for all guilds. He did this until they agreed to cooperate in a raiding system. The result was the class R and class C system. It wasn't a perfect system, but it was a milestone in p99's history. The commitment to the paradigm shift that caused raid reform here seems to have waned in recent times on the server.

True, except the players made no agreement to cooperate and that was the whole problem. The result of the class R and class C was 100% Rogean and hard coded into the server. It wasn't perfect, but it was something. C/R/FFA may as well be re-implemented at this point since there is no Sleeper anymore and arguably shittier raid conditions than back when it was first introduced.

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The basic "problem" is that classic raiding on live was horrible. The game lent itself to spawn camping by entire guilds (affectionately later called "poop socking" -- sounds pleasant), racing, kill stealing, training, bottle-necking progression (affectionately called "cock blocking" --again, sounds pleasant, right?) etc.

Live EQ never solved these problems until end-game PoP (INSTANCED POTIME). On **some servers** the competing guilds cooperated and entered into their own agreements because it was mutually beneficial, but the game mechanics and CS teams never solved them. In the end, it was only fixed by designing content that was hard to bottleneck or was actually instanced.

So...the "problem" here is that the server did what it was designed to do. The state of raiding on P99 is a FEATURE intentionally replicated and implemented by the designers.

I've already provided you with time relevant links from both Gordon Wrinn and time relevant links from multiple forums, multiple servers and multiple posters (I believe in excess of 64 individuals) that prove what your saying is bullshit.

As Gordon posted, the system was not perfect however it was implemented because guilds were permacamping spawns and in some cases entire zones and it did to a large extent solve the issue, forcing guilds to enter into rotations rather than individuals being banned or guild disbanded for breaching the classic PnP.

Nice try at misinforming the community here..

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Ikon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've already provided you with time relevant links from both Gordon Wrinn and time relevant links from multiple forums, multiple servers and multiple posters (I believe in excess of 64 individuals) that prove what your saying is bullshit.

As Gordon posted, the system was not perfect however it was implemented because guilds were permacamping spawns and in some cases entire zones and it did to a large extent solve the issue, forcing guilds to enter into rotations rather than individuals being banned or guild disbanded for breaching the classic PnP.

Nice try at misinforming the community here..

Ikon,

I've tried at least three times in the last week to dialogue with in several threads. Each and every time you've resorted to personal attacks instead. I'll try again.

Attempting to solve the problem on live and actually solving it are not the same thing. I recall all the hardships of EQ persisting on my live server (Xev--split from Povar---, which was relatively calm compared to others that my friends played on) all the way until instancing entered the game. We fought each other at each every turn for Emp kills in Luclin. For fought each other for God bottlenecks in PoP. The bitter and hostel play styles survived all attempts at player agreements and GM involvement until they actually changed the mechanics of the game (primarily adding instancing).

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ikon,

I've tried at least three times in the last week to dialogue with in several threads. Each and every time you've resorted to personal attacks instead. I'll try again.

Attempting to solve the problem on live and actually solving it are not the same thing. I recall all the hardships of EQ persisting on my live server (Xev--split from Povar---, which was relatively calm compared to others that my friends played on) all the way until instancing entered the game. We fought each other at each every turn for Emp kills in Luclin. For fought each other for God bottlenecks in PoP. The bitter and hostel play styles survived all attempts at player agreements and GM involvement until they actually changed the mechanics of the game (primarily adding instancing).

I don't personally attack people. Stop trying to be a victim.

Fact is your opinion or your 17 year old memory of EQ means sweet fark all.

Fact is the evidence I linked showed that the classic system that Verant implemented worked - as Gordon said, not perfectly, but it worked. That was verified by the comments in the threads I linked of people complaining about having to "share" and how awful it was.

"aweful" being completely subjective, as the comments mentioned the reason they didn't petition often because of the classic PnP policy is because there were lists and rotations.

There were lists and rotations because of the classic PnP policy.

That's not my 17 year old memory that's from the fingers of people from 2001 who experienced it and wrote about it in 2001. Would you like me to link it again?

Edit: Before you start arguing about me personally attacking you - A personal attack is if I said Ikon you're a farkhead. A personal attack is not if I said Ikon you're acting like a farkhead. The first is attacking the person, the second is a criticism of the persons behavior. IMO you are acting like a schoolkid. You are demanding that your personal opinion, based on your individual experience on your particular server(s) be considered evidence of what happened on every server 17 years ago. You believe that that should override contemporaneous posts of the time by Everquest developers and people who played on various servers. That is a pretty stupid expectation.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Ikon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't personally attack people. Stop trying to be a victim.

Fact is your opinion or your 17 year old memory of EQ means sweet fark all.

Fact is the evidence I linked showed that the classic system that Verant implemented worked - as Gordon said, not perfectly, but it worked. That was verified by the comments in the threads I linked of people complaining about having to "share" and how awful it was.

"aweful" being completely subjective, as the comments mentioned the reason they didn't petition often because of the classic PnP policy is because there were lists and rotations.

There were lists and rotations because of the classic PnP policy.

That's not my 17 year old memory that's from the fingers of people from 2001 who experienced it and wrote about it in 2001. Would you like me to link it again?

Edit: Before you start arguing about me personally attacking you - A personal attack is if I said Ikon you're a farkhead. A personal attack is not if I said Ikon you're acting like a farkhead. The first is attacking the person, the second is a criticism of the persons behavior. IMO you are acting like a schoolkid. You are demanding that your personal opinion, based on your individual experience on your particular server(s) be considered evidence of what happened on every server 17 years ago. You believe that that should override contemporaneous posts of the time by Everquest developers and people who played on various servers. That is a pretty stupid expectation.

Ikon,

If you don't know how calling my opinion "bullshit" or accusing me of "intentionally misleading" people is a personal attack then I don't know what to say to you.

As you've proved in multiple threads, you are just not worth engaging. Everyone who disagrees with "your facts" is relying solely on "their opinion". It isn't a discussion because you are already 100% right. You go out of your way to be unnecessarily rude and dismissive of others.

I honestly can't tell whether you are just like this or you're an intentional troll. The last time I engaged with you I received several PMs from folks just telling me not to even try to engage you. I have to say they were right, and it won't happen again.

It is ironic that you posted in another thread how you don't allow your 13 year old child to play p99 because you find the forums too toxic.

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ikon,

If you don't know how calling my opinion "bullshit" or accusing me of "intentionally misleading" people is a personal attack then I don't know what to say to you.

As you've proved in multiple threads, you are just not worth engaging. Everyone who disagrees with "your facts" is relying solely on "their opinion". It isn't a discussion because you are already 100% right. You go out of your way to be unnecessarily rude and dismissive of others.

I honestly can't tell whether you are just like this or you're an intentional troll. The last time I engaged with you I received several PMs from folks just telling me not to even try to engage you. I have to say they were right, and it won't happen again.

It is ironic that you posted in another thread how you don't allow your 13 year old child to play p99 because you find the forums too toxic.

You're deliberately attempting to obfuscate the fact that you are relying purely on your own opinion.

Calling your opinion bullshit is not a personal attack against you since your opinion is not you, your opinion is something you hold, its a belief without evidence. Accusing you of intentionally misleading people is not a personal attack because its a criticism of something I believe you are doing, rather than you personally - hence the word "personal" in "personal attack".

This is pretty basic stuff [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]