awakened gives up 2 vulaks

[Naethyn]

The Naggy scenario is completely different. We were about to pull Naggy when a guild member who was not on our raid or in mumble logged in his cleric to check ragefire and got FTE. Our leadership made a mistake by killing Naggy, even though that player wasn't even a part of our kill force, and we payed for it.

Now let's consider the last Vulak, Hijal jumped the line and got a Vulak FTE for a foot race. No one on our side knew this happened other than the Detoxx spam concede messages that happen on every Vulak (since we've had like what the last 10 Vulaks?). For you to say a guild should be suspended over that is laughable. If you really want a foot race jumpstart to count as tracker fte with a suspension you're insane. Wake up.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Naggy scenario is completely different. We were about to pull Naggy when a guild member who was not on our raid or in mumble logged in his cleric to check ragefire and got FTE. Our leadership made a mistake by killing Naggy, even though that player wasn't even a part of our kill force, and we payed for it.

Now let's consider the last Vulak, Hijal jumped the line and got a Vulak FTE for a foot race. No one on our side knew this happened other than the Detoxx spam concede messages that happen on every Vulak (since we've had like what the last 10 Vulaks?). For you to say a guild should be suspended over that is laughable. If you really want a foot race jumpstart to count as tracker fte with a suspension you're insane. Wake up.

As an outside observer to this lunacy. About 20 people at the start line of that race knew he had a head start. Half of them were in your guild. So the whole "We didn't know" argument isn't going to work on this one. I don't care either way. You guys are all being insane right now with the raiding environment on P99.

[Teako]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Naggy scenario is completely different. We were about to pull Naggy when a guild member who was not on our raid or in mumble logged in his cleric to check ragefire and got FTE. Our leadership made a mistake by killing Naggy, even though that player wasn't even a part of our kill force, and we payed for it.

Now let's consider the last Vulak, Hijal jumped the line and got a Vulak FTE for a foot race. No one on our side knew this happened other than the Detoxx spam concede messages that happen on every Vulak (since we've had like what the last 10 Vulaks?). For you to say a guild should be suspended over that is laughable. If you really want a foot race jumpstart to count as tracker fte with a suspension you're insane. Wake up.

So the 8 FTE runners you had staring at the door in first person ready to run staring desperately at a screenshare somehow didn't notice the skeleton illusioned bard running 7 full seconds before anyone else did..? And don't tell me "bind sight" - since at least 4 of your runners were monks and can't bind sight?

Anything past the entrance line is considered a tracker until they return to the line. This is not news to anyone. Your runner knowingly, and willingly engaged a mob while being past the starting line. Regardless of if your entire guild knew it, one person knew it, or the entire server knew it. The rules are clear - if you are past the line you are considered a tracker and illegible for FTE.

So let's consider this -- as you put it:
Awakened willingly killed a mob that they had knowingly disqualified themselves from by acquiring tracker FTE. Politics, past, and future aside - these are the stone cold facts.

The punishment for tracker FTE/kill is not a concede - it's a suspension.

[Naethyn]

Originally Posted by Teako [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So the 8 FTE runners you had staring at the door in first person ready to run staring desperately at a screenshare somehow didn't notice the skeleton illusioned bard running 7 full seconds before anyone else did..? And don't tell me "bind sight" - since at least 4 of your runners were monks and can't bind sight?

Anything past the entrance line is considered a tracker until they return to the line. This is not news to anyone. Your runner knowingly, and willingly engaged a mob while being past the starting line. Regardless of if your entire guild knew it, one person knew it, or the entire server knew it. The rules are clear - if you are past the line you are considered a tracker and illegible for FTE.

So let's consider this -- as you put it:
Awakened willingly killed a mob that they had knowingly disqualified themselves from by acquiring tracker FTE. Politics, past, and future aside - these are the stone cold facts.

The punishment for tracker FTE/kill is not a concede - it's a suspension.

This is the type of raid rule lawyering nonsense that everyone complains about. Do you seriously consider someone jumping the line in a foot race "tracker fte"? Please step back and take a minute to think about this. Anyone who honestly thinks this is real should ask themselves if they are a part of the problem.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the type of raid rule lawyering nonsense that everyone complains about. Do you seriously consider someone jumping the line in a foot race "tracker fte"? Please step back and take a minute to think about this. Anyone who honestly thinks this is real should ask themselves if they are a part of the problem.

Your argument for this is flawed. He wasn't jumping a start when he left the line. He was going to get rebuffed. His bind sight/tracking ability showed him the mob popped after he left the line. Again I don't care either way. In this situation though he was definitely a tracker past the line. This is why you guys should rotate mobs to avoid stuff like this.

[Teako]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the type of raid rule lawyering nonsense that everyone complains about. Do you seriously consider someone jumping the line in a foot race "tracker fte"? Please step back and take a minute to think about this. Anyone who honestly thinks this is real should ask themselves if they are a part of the problem.

Completely wrong. This is the exact letter of the rule in entirety. I understand the spin machine, and trying to make yourself look less shitty... Unfortunately, tracker FTE rules in every single zone are pretty clear. The rules for every single solitary raid mob on this server say that if you are not at the predesignated place to run for the FTE that you cannot acquire the FTE. It is not up for speculation, because speculation leads to abuse. If you are past the starting line for any reason -- you are considered a tracker until you return to the line. This is not up for your debate, or mine. The line is the line, and if you are past it you cannot FTE mobs. This applies to all guilds equally.


Try stopping and asking yourself this -- "I am being presented with video evidence of my guild violating the raid rules. I know that you can not be past the line in ToV to acquire an FTE. I know that by server rules if you are past the line you are a tracker. I am watching a video of my guild violating all of these rules. Why am I trying to defend a clear, malicious, willing usurpation of the rule set?"

[Detoxx]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Naggy scenario is completely different. We were about to pull Naggy when a guild member who was not on our raid or in mumble logged in his cleric to check ragefire and got FTE. Our leadership made a mistake by killing Naggy, even though that player wasn't even a part of our kill force, and we payed for it.

Now let's consider the last Vulak, Hijal jumped the line and got a Vulak FTE for a foot race. No one on our side knew this happened other than the Detoxx spam concede messages that happen on every Vulak (since we've had like what the last 10 Vulaks?). For you to say a guild should be suspended over that is laughable. If you really want a foot race jumpstart to count as tracker fte with a suspension you're insane. Wake up.

Fraps was delivered well before the pull. Thats the difference in all these events you're trying to claim we did the same thing. You're officers saw a fraps of you cheating, ignored it and killed it anyways.

[BallzDeep]

Originally Posted by Detoxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fraps was delivered well before the pull. Thats the difference in all these events you're trying to claim we did the same thing. You're officers saw a fraps of you cheating, ignored it and killed it anyways.

Honestly at this point who gives a shit? Why don't you choose to be the better man and tell them you enjoy competition and only want 1 Vulak. That will probably set the precedent for the future and maybe on your next fuckup, there won't be any suspensions and you can just play the game. I wouldn't want a bunch of free mobs anyway for a handful of people's mistakes.

It when you guys get in this "maximum suspension to benefit as much as possible" mindset(both guilds not just AM) it turns into this shit.

[Teako]

Originally Posted by BallzDeep [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Honestly at this point who gives a shit? Why don't you choose to be the better man and tell them you enjoy competition and only want 1 Vulak. That will probably set the precedent for the future and maybe on your next fuckup, there won't be any suspensions and you can just play the game. I wouldn't want a bunch of free mobs anyway for a handful of people's mistakes.

It when you guys get in this "maximum suspension to benefit as much as possible" mindset(both guilds not just AM) it turns into this shit.

Because the precedent you're promoting is a much more dangerous one --- Break the ever living fuck out of every single established raid rule by camping FTErs on Vulak's spawn.. log in on spawn, get a guaranteed 33%-50% of Vulak spawns, concede the next 1-2 and ruin the raid scene entirely. Suddenly there's no more competition, or racing.. Just guilds trying to get the first tracker FTE to guarantee a kill and concede the next one.

Without rules, and punishments for breaking those rules the raid scene will become far worse than current. The rule set at the moment works -- and the punishments are clear for breaking tracker FTE rules. It's not Detoxx, or AM pushing for "as much as possible" - it's the established punishment for the committed action.

You can't rob a bank, go home, count your money and spread it out.. Then when the FBI shows up go "oh, we didn't know. here, you can have 77% of the money back." - Not a chance.

[BallzDeep]

Originally Posted by Teako [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Because the precedent you're promoting is a much more dangerous one --- Break the ever living fuck out of every single established raid rule by camping FTErs on Vulak's spawn.. log in on spawn, get a guaranteed 33%-50% of Vulak spawns, concede the next 1-2 and ruin the raid scene entirely. Suddenly there's no more competition, or racing.. Just guilds trying to get the first tracker FTE to guarantee a kill and concede the next one.

Without rules, and punishments for breaking those rules the raid scene will become far worse than current. The rule set at the moment works -- and the punishments are clear for breaking tracker FTE rules. It's not Detoxx, or AM pushing for "as much as possible" - it's the established punishment for the committed action.

You can't rob a bank, go home, count your money and spread it out.. Then when the FBI shows up go "oh, we didn't know. here, you can have 77% of the money back." - Not a chance.

So if the top two guilds killed one conceded one, that would be 50/50 right? My point was to stop pushing for maximum punishments because the precedent is always different depending on what happened, how it happened, who was there.

The analogy was bad because right now if Vulak is the bank, that means AM/Awakened are the bank security/police officers and they report send in their evidence to the judge. If a bank officer was awarded $5000 for stopping a crime, how do you think our system would be? Bunch of false reports and alternate agendas? Check.