Raid guild loot systems other than DKP?

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If items dropped for every class at every raid, /random would work out over the long run. I agree with that. It actually seems like a decent system for Kael arena raids and planar runs where there's usually a little something for everyone.

However, classic EQ does not work that way once you start killing major targets with limited loot tables. The guy who attends everything actually wins on average less per raid than the guy who only attends raids with the potential to drop an item he can use.

For example, the warrior who attends equal numbers of Velketor and Vindi raids wins half as much "per capita" as the warrior who only attends Vindi raids. Since Velketor only drops caster items, he has no opportunity to join in the /random for that raid.

The caster has incentive to show up for melee drops because if he doesn't, the melee don't have incentive to show up for caster drops. Quid Pro Quo. If someone doesn't hold up their end of the bargain and blatantly skips raids, there's no reason to leave them guilded. DKP guilds have the same problem I'd guess, since even with the incentive of DKP many have minimum raid attendance requirements. A little leadership and sense of community goes a long way to eliminating this problem.

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The caster has incentive to show up for melee drops because if he doesn't, the melee don't have incentive to show up for caster drops. Quid Pro Quo. If someone doesn't hold up their end of the bargain and blatantly skips raids, there's no reason to leave them guilded. DKP guilds have the same problem I'd guess, since even with the incentive of DKP many have minimum raid attendance requirements. A little leadership and sense of community goes a long way to eliminating this problem.

I don't disagree with anything you've written here. I'm just pointing out that a straight /random system doesn't ensure equal outcomes for everyone in the long run with classic EQ loot tables. People can game the system to produce better results for themselves, much like they can in other loot systems. It just incentivizes a different set of behaviors than a DKP or loot council set-up.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't disagree with anything you've written here. I'm just pointing out that a straight /random system doesn't ensure equal outcomes for everyone in the long run with classic EQ loot tables. People can game the system to produce better results for themselves, much like they can in other loot systems. It just incentivizes a different set of behaviors than a DKP or loot council set-up.

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

This actually really makes a lot of sense imo. I just wonder though if in practice it's as successful as it sounds in theory. Kind of like communism, in theory it sounds awesome in reality that human element you speak of makes it not so good. It's really hard to weed out the human element, especially when you are dealing with humans. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Lojik]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

So basically in a real world situation it's not perfectly fair, because it's a guarantee that not everyone is going to stick to this principle. The system needs to take into account the players in order to determine "fairness."

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by unbiased. I don't consider a DKP system inherently biased. You earn a DKP currency by attending raids and you spend that DKP as you see fit. Those who raid more have more currency to spend, but in the long run everyone should get an amount of loot equivalent to their raiding input. If everyone behaved in an ideal manner, there's no reason this system shouldn't divy up loot just as efficiently as a /random system.

When I think of "bias" I think of subjectivity. DKP systems are not subjective. You seem to have a different definition.

[thufir]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by unbiased. I don't consider a DKP system inherently biased. You earn a DKP currency by attending raids and you spend that DKP as you see fit. Those who raid more have more currency to spend, but in the long run everyone should get an amount of loot equivalent to their raiding input. If everyone behaved in an ideal manner, there's no reason this system shouldn't divy up loot just as efficiently as a /random system.

When I think of "bias" I think of subjectivity. DKP systems are not subjective. You seem to have a different definition.

The way bidding is handled, including what threshold you are allowed to bid at, is subjective. Most guilds have raid attendance requirements that prevent you from bidding if you are not at a certain raid attendance %.

That's decidedly worse than random for people who play occasionally.

I get that everyone has this "what have you done for me lately" attitude that prevents a more equitable DKP system but otherwise I don't get it. If you collected a bunch of DKP three months ago but had to do RL things for a summer and came back in the fall, why should you have to raid another month to get RA up before you cash it in? You still did all that work.

Just saying, it seems to work for everyone in those systems, but that's definitely a bias in favor of the hard core above and beyond just how much DKP you accumulate.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by thufir [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The way bidding is handled, including what threshold you are allowed to bid at, is subjective. Most guilds have raid attendance requirements that prevent you from bidding if you are not at a certain raid attendance %.

That's decidedly worse than random for people who play occasionally.

I get that everyone has this "what have you done for me lately" attitude that prevents a more equitable DKP system but otherwise I don't get it. If you collected a bunch of DKP three months ago but had to do RL things for a summer and came back in the fall, why should you have to raid another month to get RA up before you cash it in? You still did all that work.

Just saying, it seems to work for everyone in those systems, but that's definitely a bias in favor of the hard core above and beyond just how much DKP you accumulate.

Just tell me that you wouldn't be salty that you've lost your 40th /rand roll in a row on an item and it went to a first timer. I know there is a whole fluffy love feeling behind the /rand, but eventually it leads to people getting upset and leaving. People in Clue have actually griped to me about this.

Our guild did this on live, and I was new and won an Indicolite BP in hate over a guy that was basically an officer in our guild and built it from the ground up. He eventually left and we adopted a loot council / linking system until the guild disbanded. I should have been the bigger man and passed that item to him, but overcoming greed is tough in a digital pixel world.

To boil it down, /Rand systems are the welfare of EQ, Loot Council is run by Democrats, DKP by Republicans.

[Swish]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just tell me that you wouldn't be salty that you've lost your 40th /rand roll in a row on an item and it went to a first timer. I know there is a whole fluffy love feeling behind the /rand, but eventually it leads to people getting upset and leaving. People in Clue have actually griped to me about this.

Warrior/mage/etc epics decided on a random? I dunno folks...

[thufir]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just tell me that you wouldn't be salty that you've lost your 40th /rand roll in a row on an item and it went to a first timer. I know there is a whole fluffy love feeling behind the /rand, but eventually it leads to people getting upset and leaving. People in Clue have actually griped to me about this.

Our guild did this on live, and I was new and won an Indicolite BP in hate over a guy that was basically an officer in our guild and built it from the ground up. He eventually left and we adopted a loot council / linking system until the guild disbanded. I should have been the bigger man and passed that item to him, but overcoming greed is tough in a digital pixel world.

To boil it down, /Rand systems are the welfare of EQ, Loot Council is run by Democrats, DKP by Republicans.

sure, sometimes it can suck. and occasionally even clue will just say "this BP goes to person X" because they're part of their core team or whatever. so there's always some bones thrown to the people who line up to attend every day.

that having been said, it's not like DKP with RA doesn't get people upset and leaving either. they're just people who aren't hard core people, definitionally, and raiders generally lean towards keeping hard core people happy. /random doesn't keep hard core people happy, so a lot of guilds don't use it.

that's all it is, not some weird welfare/democrat/republican dichotomy like how you set it out.