Raid guild loot systems other than DKP?

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So /random isn't exactly unbiased. It's actually biased toward selfish people who pick and choose which raids to attend based on the potential drops.

But they still get less loot because they're not winning any from the other raids.

Besides, nothing is stopping a guild from /guildremove of people who do this.

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But they still get less loot because they're not winning any from the other raids.

If items dropped for every class at every raid, /random would work out over the long run. I agree with that. It actually seems like a decent system for Kael arena raids and planar runs where there's usually a little something for everyone.

However, classic EQ does not work that way once you start killing major targets with limited loot tables. The guy who attends everything actually wins on average less per raid than the guy who only attends raids with the potential to drop an item he can use.

For example, the warrior who attends equal numbers of Velketor and Vindi raids wins half as much "per capita" as the warrior who only attends Vindi raids. Since Velketor only drops caster items, he has no opportunity to join in the /random for that raid.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If items dropped for every class at every raid, /random would work out over the long run. I agree with that. It actually seems like a decent system for Kael arena raids and planar runs where there's usually a little something for everyone.

However, classic EQ does not work that way once you start killing major targets with limited loot tables. The guy who attends everything actually wins on average less per raid than the guy who only attends raids with the potential to drop an item he can use.

For example, the warrior who attends equal numbers of Velketor and Vindi raids wins half as much "per capita" as the warrior who only attends Vindi raids. Since Velketor only drops caster items, he has no opportunity to join in the /random for that raid.

The caster has incentive to show up for melee drops because if he doesn't, the melee don't have incentive to show up for caster drops. Quid Pro Quo. If someone doesn't hold up their end of the bargain and blatantly skips raids, there's no reason to leave them guilded. DKP guilds have the same problem I'd guess, since even with the incentive of DKP many have minimum raid attendance requirements. A little leadership and sense of community goes a long way to eliminating this problem.

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The caster has incentive to show up for melee drops because if he doesn't, the melee don't have incentive to show up for caster drops. Quid Pro Quo. If someone doesn't hold up their end of the bargain and blatantly skips raids, there's no reason to leave them guilded. DKP guilds have the same problem I'd guess, since even with the incentive of DKP many have minimum raid attendance requirements. A little leadership and sense of community goes a long way to eliminating this problem.

I don't disagree with anything you've written here. I'm just pointing out that a straight /random system doesn't ensure equal outcomes for everyone in the long run with classic EQ loot tables. People can game the system to produce better results for themselves, much like they can in other loot systems. It just incentivizes a different set of behaviors than a DKP or loot council set-up.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't disagree with anything you've written here. I'm just pointing out that a straight /random system doesn't ensure equal outcomes for everyone in the long run with classic EQ loot tables. People can game the system to produce better results for themselves, much like they can in other loot systems. It just incentivizes a different set of behaviors than a DKP or loot council set-up.

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

This actually really makes a lot of sense imo. I just wonder though if in practice it's as successful as it sounds in theory. Kind of like communism, in theory it sounds awesome in reality that human element you speak of makes it not so good. It's really hard to weed out the human element, especially when you are dealing with humans. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Lojik]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

So basically in a real world situation it's not perfectly fair, because it's a guarantee that not everyone is going to stick to this principle. The system needs to take into account the players in order to determine "fairness."

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by unbiased. I don't consider a DKP system inherently biased. You earn a DKP currency by attending raids and you spend that DKP as you see fit. Those who raid more have more currency to spend, but in the long run everyone should get an amount of loot equivalent to their raiding input. If everyone behaved in an ideal manner, there's no reason this system shouldn't divy up loot just as efficiently as a /random system.

When I think of "bias" I think of subjectivity. DKP systems are not subjective. You seem to have a different definition.

[thufir]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by unbiased. I don't consider a DKP system inherently biased. You earn a DKP currency by attending raids and you spend that DKP as you see fit. Those who raid more have more currency to spend, but in the long run everyone should get an amount of loot equivalent to their raiding input. If everyone behaved in an ideal manner, there's no reason this system shouldn't divy up loot just as efficiently as a /random system.

When I think of "bias" I think of subjectivity. DKP systems are not subjective. You seem to have a different definition.

The way bidding is handled, including what threshold you are allowed to bid at, is subjective. Most guilds have raid attendance requirements that prevent you from bidding if you are not at a certain raid attendance %.

That's decidedly worse than random for people who play occasionally.

I get that everyone has this "what have you done for me lately" attitude that prevents a more equitable DKP system but otherwise I don't get it. If you collected a bunch of DKP three months ago but had to do RL things for a summer and came back in the fall, why should you have to raid another month to get RA up before you cash it in? You still did all that work.

Just saying, it seems to work for everyone in those systems, but that's definitely a bias in favor of the hard core above and beyond just how much DKP you accumulate.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by unbiased. I don't consider a DKP system inherently biased. You earn a DKP currency by attending raids and you spend that DKP as you see fit. Those who raid more have more currency to spend, but in the long run everyone should get an amount of loot equivalent to their raiding input. If everyone behaved in an ideal manner, there's no reason this system shouldn't divy up loot just as efficiently as a /random system.

When I think of "bias" I think of subjectivity. DKP systems are not subjective. You seem to have a different definition.

What I mean by unbiased is it doesn't favor one particular outcome over another. If you go into a raid with Johnny DKP, Billy Casual Scum and Every Evening Eddie and it's /random, on any particular raid it's not going to favor one raider from the next, as it shouldn't because everyone has an equal contribution to making that particular raid happen. But over time, the Johnny DKP's are going to accrue more loot relative to others, because they're rolling more. On average it'll balance out that the people who show up to say 80% of the raids are going to be sharing 80% of the loot and the 20%ers 20%. The people who work more have more to show for it.

If you go DKP, the outcome of who gets loot is strongly skewed to Johnny DKP. Every Evening Eddie has a little favor, Billy Casual Scum may as well not even bother. Now say Billy Casual Scum rides it out and saves his DKP for that one special item he really, really wants, he's still at a horrible disadvantage as other loot that he might otherwise buy is going to the Johnny DKP's of the guild because he can't afford to spend his points and bid on it because he needs every point he can get for the one thing he wants and at the end of the day it's still no guarantee he won't be outbid. The loot goes disproportionately to the DKP farmers.