Raid guild loot systems other than DKP?

[myriverse]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All things being equal is pretty much the textbook definition of unbiased.

Not true. All things being equal is a bias towards a false equality. It benefits those who don't contribute as much over those that contribute a lot.

[Vallanor]

No system is perfect, but DKP bidding seems the most popular because it boils it down to a simple currency game. The more you raid, the more DKP you have to spend. The more you want something, the more you'll be willing to spend, and the more likely you'll win the item. Active players win more things, as they should, but if they want something less than someone else, they won't win it.

It's tough for DKP to account for varying levels of contribution at a given raid event though, which is probably its biggest weakness. You pretty much earn DKP just by showing up.

The problem with /random, in my opinion, is there's no incentive for people to attend raids that aren't likely to drop something they can use. The guy who only shows up to Vindi raids because he wants the BP really badly is just as likely to win it as the guy who attends everything regardless of whether it truly benefits him personally.

So /random isn't exactly unbiased. It's actually biased toward selfish people who pick and choose which raids to attend based on the potential drops.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So /random isn't exactly unbiased. It's actually biased toward selfish people who pick and choose which raids to attend based on the potential drops.

But they still get less loot because they're not winning any from the other raids.

Besides, nothing is stopping a guild from /guildremove of people who do this.

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But they still get less loot because they're not winning any from the other raids.

If items dropped for every class at every raid, /random would work out over the long run. I agree with that. It actually seems like a decent system for Kael arena raids and planar runs where there's usually a little something for everyone.

However, classic EQ does not work that way once you start killing major targets with limited loot tables. The guy who attends everything actually wins on average less per raid than the guy who only attends raids with the potential to drop an item he can use.

For example, the warrior who attends equal numbers of Velketor and Vindi raids wins half as much "per capita" as the warrior who only attends Vindi raids. Since Velketor only drops caster items, he has no opportunity to join in the /random for that raid.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If items dropped for every class at every raid, /random would work out over the long run. I agree with that. It actually seems like a decent system for Kael arena raids and planar runs where there's usually a little something for everyone.

However, classic EQ does not work that way once you start killing major targets with limited loot tables. The guy who attends everything actually wins on average less per raid than the guy who only attends raids with the potential to drop an item he can use.

For example, the warrior who attends equal numbers of Velketor and Vindi raids wins half as much "per capita" as the warrior who only attends Vindi raids. Since Velketor only drops caster items, he has no opportunity to join in the /random for that raid.

The caster has incentive to show up for melee drops because if he doesn't, the melee don't have incentive to show up for caster drops. Quid Pro Quo. If someone doesn't hold up their end of the bargain and blatantly skips raids, there's no reason to leave them guilded. DKP guilds have the same problem I'd guess, since even with the incentive of DKP many have minimum raid attendance requirements. A little leadership and sense of community goes a long way to eliminating this problem.

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The caster has incentive to show up for melee drops because if he doesn't, the melee don't have incentive to show up for caster drops. Quid Pro Quo. If someone doesn't hold up their end of the bargain and blatantly skips raids, there's no reason to leave them guilded. DKP guilds have the same problem I'd guess, since even with the incentive of DKP many have minimum raid attendance requirements. A little leadership and sense of community goes a long way to eliminating this problem.

I don't disagree with anything you've written here. I'm just pointing out that a straight /random system doesn't ensure equal outcomes for everyone in the long run with classic EQ loot tables. People can game the system to produce better results for themselves, much like they can in other loot systems. It just incentivizes a different set of behaviors than a DKP or loot council set-up.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't disagree with anything you've written here. I'm just pointing out that a straight /random system doesn't ensure equal outcomes for everyone in the long run with classic EQ loot tables. People can game the system to produce better results for themselves, much like they can in other loot systems. It just incentivizes a different set of behaviors than a DKP or loot council set-up.

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No system is perfect, but DKP bidding seems the most popular because it boils it down to a simple currency game. The more you raid, the more DKP you have to spend........The problem with /random, in my opinion, is there's no incentive for people to attend raids that aren't likely to drop something they can use.

You want to pay me for showing up for your guild event or put myself on-call for your guild, you better be paying me dollars, not pixels. I'm not turning my hobby time into a really lousy second job just for pixel currency. Likewise, trying to coerce people into showing up for events they don't want to go to strikes me as a lousy way to run something that's supposed to be fun.

I'll stick with guilds that /random or merit things out and keep the game--a game. Nothing against folks who're okay with the currency system, but it isn't for me.

Danth

[Swish]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You want to pay me for showing up for your guild event or put myself on-call for your guild, you better be paying me dollars, not pixels. I'm not turning my hobby time into a really lousy second job just for pixel currency...

At this point its worth taking a step back and remembering that it's good to have friends in your guild, to enjoy the time you play with them while raiding and so on. If raiding feels like a chore, and you don't like talking to those people, perhaps consider moving guilds <3

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You want to pay me for showing up for your guild event or put myself on-call for your guild, you better be paying me dollars, not pixels. I'm not turning my hobby time into a really lousy second job just for pixel currency. Likewise, trying to coerce people into showing up for events they don't want to go to strikes me as a lousy way to run something that's supposed to be fun.

I'll stick with guilds that /random or merit things out and keep the game--a game. Nothing against folks who're okay with the currency system, but it isn't for me.

Danth

Who's asking you to turn raiding into a job? DKP encourages participation whether or not your class benefits from an activity. It doesn't *require* participation at anything. Come raid when you feel like raiding. Don't raid when you're busy. We have a ton of casual players in Azure Guard who raid very infrequently and they still get loot. Less than highly active players, but enough to keep everyone more or less happy. This is the same thing /random is supposed to do, right?

I feel like you're conflating the concept of DKP with the kinds of hardcore guilds that require a huge raid percentage just to spend their DKP or require attendance when online. Those two things need not go hand in hand, and in Azure Guard's case, do not.