So now that druid spells got hammered...

[eriamjh]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What imbalances? Please actually respond instead of just recapitulating things you've already said.

He is referring to Whirl till you Hurl like everyone else.

The story goes: It was nerfed 2 weeks (or whatever) into classic. Casting Tash + Whirl kept mobs chain stunned very very easily and it was really BS. Add single resist check, LONG duration root and there was barely any risk to the enchanter since even DDs-break-root didn't exist for awhile.

Basically two things happened when it got nerfed:

1. Instead of being "all or nothing" it gained a random duration like root! Now every time whirl did land it was for a random 0 to 12 seconds instead of the full 12 seconds. That straight up more than halved its effectiveness.

2. It became a mesmerize line spell in contrast to a stun line spell. This meant that if any melee hit the mob during those 0-12 seconds they broke the stun. Additionally a mobs attack would continue to refresh while stunned, allowing the mob to attack just as soon as the stun broke. This made it useless as a combat mez other than to keep the mob from beating the enchanter while they reevaluated or refreshed another spell.

So... Neither of these work here and enchanters are locking down mobs like Undertow and Estrella of Gloomwater with a much lower chance of failure.

Undertow normally kills a charmed seahorses guard taken from his spawn even with 60-70% haste and weapons to quad. With Whirl he rarely is able to cast Ice Commet as he literally spends most of the fight stunned while the pet DPSs.

I can't personally solo Estrella and so don't try. However I doubt she is supposed to be pleasant to kill at all either. (She is a 51 druid that starts out with a 29 DS and should cast Superior Healing at least as soon as the spell changes preceding Kunark.)

A certain enchanter who probably wont remain nameless for long spent months selling the shoulder items off of these mobs starting at around 35,000pp and 50,000pp respectively. This went on for several months and neither item dropped below 20,0000 pp in this time. That person alone obviously had the opportunity to make half a million platinum if not a full million or more off of this bug if not a few others, too. (Like mobs not pathing into LOS to cast and choosing to melee pitifully instead. Pathing in KK was JUST fixed patch before last.)

Sufficeth to say there is reason to be angry and frustrated.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by eriamjh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He is referring to Whirl till you Hurl like everyone else.

The story goes: It was nerfed 2 weeks (or whatever) into classic. Casting Tash + Whirl kept mobs chain stunned very very easily and it was really BS. Add single resist check, LONG duration root and there was barely any risk to the enchanter since even DDs-break-root didn't exist for awhile.

Basically two things happened when it got nerfed:

1. Instead of being "all or nothing" it gained a random duration like root! Now every time whirl did land it was for a random 0 to 12 seconds instead of the full 12 seconds. That straight up more than halved its effectiveness.

2. It became a mesmerize line spell in contrast to a stun line spell. This meant that if any melee hit the mob during those 0-12 seconds they broke the stun. Additionally a mobs attack would continue to refresh while stunned, allowing the mob to attack just as soon as the stun broke. This made it useless as a combat mez other than to keep the mob from beating the enchanter while they reevaluated or refreshed another spell.

So... Neither of these work here and enchanters are locking down mobs like Undertow and Estrella of Gloomwater with a much lower chance of failure.

Undertow normally kills a charmed seahorses guard taken from his spawn even with 60-70% haste and weapons to quad. With Whirl he rarely is able to cast Ice Commet as he literally spends most of the fight stunned while the pet DPSs.

I can't personally solo Estrella and so don't try. However I doubt she is supposed to be pleasant to kill at all either. (She is a 51 druid that starts out with a 29 DS and should cast Superior Healing at least as soon as the spell changes preceding Kunark.)

A certain enchanter who probably wont remain nameless for long spent months selling the shoulder items off of these mobs starting at around 35,000pp and 50,000pp respectively. This went on for several months and neither item dropped below 20,0000 pp in this time. That person alone obviously had the opportunity to make half a million platinum if not a full million or more off of this bug if not a few others, too. (Like mobs not pathing into LOS to cast and choosing to melee pitifully instead. Pathing in KK was JUST fixed patch before last.)

Sufficeth to say there is reason to be angry and frustrated.

Actually he said "Enchanter charm", so I don't think he was referring to Whirl - although I have no problem with Whirl getting nerfed (even though I have an enchanter). I think the silliness of this is that he claims that his class is unfairly nerfed, yet won't even bug report the nerfs he thinks should happen for mages/enchanters. By all means, try to get Whirl nerfed if you think it's classic - I just think that doing so with strong evidence and a good attitude in the Bugs forum is a lot more productive than what Alawen is doing. Basically, there's no reason it won't get changed if you can provide enough good evidence.

I also think Ravhin is totally right.

[eriamjh]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually he said "Enchanter charm", so I don't think he was referring to Whirl - although I have no problem with Whirl getting nerfed (even though I have an enchanter). I think the silliness of this is that he claims that his class is unfairly nerfed, yet won't even bug report the nerfs he thinks should happen for mages/enchanters. By all means, try to get Whirl nerfed if you think it's classic - I just think that doing so with strong evidence and a good attitude in the Bugs forum is a lot more productive than what Alawen is doing. Basically, there's no reason it won't get changed if you can provide enough good evidence.

I also think Ravhin is totally right.

So he did. Still. It's not like they didn't know since launch. At least I am pretty sure they did.. Lets make sure quick.

...

k done.

Originally Posted by Wenai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have been saying since prior to launch that it was a random duration. I never played an enchanter and never really grouped with one, but my point of reference is the Tranquil Staff.

[...]

Starting to see the fairness issue and why this is boiling over into Server Chat? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Lazortag]

In their defense, a lot of the devs in that thread aren't as active as they used to be (at least they don't seem to be). Additionally, (as you can see from the thread) they weren't clear on when it should be nerfed in the timeline and what the most appropriate fix would be. Nerfing druids was easy so that's probably why it was done sooner - it just meant changing some values, like "spell x has to have duration y instead of duration z". I'm glad you at least did the mature thing and bumped the thread. The only really productive thing you can do to get whirl changed, is to keep providing evidence and keep posting in that thread.

Basically, if something isn't changed for a while there's no reason it should spill into server chat or turn into some big protest. The devs don't have any sinister reason for keeping certain classes overpowered or for preferencing any class over another. There's almost always a reasonable explanation for why class X got nerfed and class Y didn't. Just try to understand this from their perspective.

I basically agree with what yaaaflow says at the end of his post. I don't think they should change things based on hunches and anecdotal evidence.

[eriamjh]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In their defense, a lot of the devs in that thread aren't as active as they used to be (at least they don't seem to be). Additionally, (as you can see from the thread) they weren't clear on when it should be nerfed in the timeline and what the most appropriate fix would be. Nerfing druids was easy so that's probably why it was done sooner - it just meant changing some values, like "spell x has to have duration y instead of duration z". I'm glad you at least did the mature thing and bumped the thread. The only really productive thing you can do to get whirl changed, is to keep providing evidence and keep posting in that thread.

Basically, if something isn't changed for a while there's no reason it should spill into server chat or turn into some big protest. The devs don't have any sinister reason for keeping certain classes overpowered or for preferencing any class over another. There's almost always a reasonable explanation for why class X got nerfed and class Y didn't. Just try to understand this from their perspective.

I basically agree with what yaaaflow says at the end of his post. I don't think they should change things based on hunches and anecdotal evidence.

You summary of that thread misses the entire point. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] In that thread there is a rather crystal clear progression from people complaining about the bug to posting evidence and getting verification it needed to be nerfed AND would be nerfed. It goes something like this:

+ Someone complains Whirl is overpowered based on recollection alone.
+ Xzerion states that as both a developer and an enchanter he thinks it is overpowered and should be nerfed.
+ Some others also complain that it should be nerfed with basically no evidence.
+ Xzerion states that they will not be nerfing it until evidence is provided and talks about the gold standard of getting proof before making changes.
+ Some posts later half a dozen references are provided as "evidence" including links.
+ Shortly thereafter Xzerion essentially posts "It will be nerfed. We are working on it. We will keep you posted."
+ Two enchanters complain it shouldn't be nerfed until Kunark but post no evidence.
+ This all happened back in 2009.

Now there are some conflicting reports BUT it does not change the conclusion reached back in 2009 that Whirl was too OP and needed to be nerfed. See Xzerion state "but expect it to be similar to what has been reported thus far."

The entire point is that the developers had enough information to conclude it needed to be nerfed and for Xzerion to state that they were working on it but ... they never nerfed it.

But whatever. How about this. I will acknowledge that this shouldn't have spilled over into Server Chat IFF you acknowledge that their doing nothing for so long after stating that something needed be done, and in fact would be done, was the reason it did!

Hell this isn't even the first thread ranting about this that was started in Server Chat. A number of non-enchanters really aren't happy about this at all.

[mcy]

At least druids are useful in raids. I played a mage back in the day and it was a great class until I realized how utterly useless they were in raids. Promptly switched to a monk so at least I could pull for raids.

As far as the pets go the only decent pet was earth the rest died too fast but I've noticed a lot of people being able to use fire as a solo tank pet. I know for a fact thats not how it was before and it should be changed if they are going for a classic feel.

[Kassel]

Originally Posted by mcy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At least druids are useful in raids. I played a mage back in the day and it was a great class until I realized how utterly useless they were in raids. Promptly switched to a monk so at least I could pull for raids.

As far as the pets go the only decent pet was earth the rest died too fast but I've noticed a lot of people being able to use fire as a solo tank pet. I know for a fact thats not how it was before and it should be changed if they are going for a classic feel.

LOL, i guess folks do need regen and sln ! fun times.

[JayDee]

Mages are very useful on raids and druids are almost worthless

L2Play Everquest

[mcy]

Originally Posted by JayDee [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mages are very useful on raids and druids are almost worthless

L2Play Everquest

Thats funny as I recall mage spells had a very hard time landing on bosses and were next to nothing as to what a wizard would do. Maybe spell resistance is different on this server but live during kunark era mages were worth jack shit in raids.

oh! They could always summon us up some water in between fights we always needed a water boy.

[Bubbles]

The druids regen the clerics and shamans who mod rod during the buff stages of a raid encounter. Sheesh. They both have a place. In classic, i've seen both druids train adds in both planes and even mages pull. Hell i've pulled Hate on my cleric before.

Your planar roles are only as boring as you make them.

Mages: rods, maloisi (or whatever), nukes, damage shields, petting down pet mobs, dispells, nukes, summoning food and water (hey, it's useful!).

Druids: kiting adds, tracking, regen, SLN, fire/cold/magic resist (i remember them having the best FR/CR spells, but that may be kunark for the Circle-line), snare, rooting mes'd mobs (i know blind better, but still!), nukes, off heals for enchanters and clerics and such, SoW, thorns, HARMONY.. etc.

There's valuable classes, and then there is valuable people. Some of the most talented people i've seen on this server were druids, and could literally make or break planar clears and avert wipes through smarts, reactionary thinking, and using their class outside of the box.

Now you can certainly argue that once you hit Plane of Sky, mages become one dimensional and druids get to shine in only certain specfic spots, but a *lot* of classes fall into that category. Without the ability really to tap/cast on a ton of the upper tier mobs in sky, a necro (very versatile normally) is reduced to being a really $#!++y mage with slow summon times.. Come Kunark / Dragon encounters, pet casters especially see their general usefulness fall by the wayside.

It doesnt really matter, a good druid or mage or necro can always shine in the 6man dungeon crawls awaiting in the 51-60 grind, and it's a well deserved break from idling in EC on our 4th alt while waiting for a text or twitter batsignal to race to XXXX target like sheep.

Besides, you idiots, this is 2011.. It's not 1999. You *knew* what you were signing up for. If you wanted to be useful on a raid, you would have gritted your teeth and suffered through a cleric or warrior. You didn't. You got unlimited solo and duoing options levelling 1-50 and didn't end up the game-breaking class for planar and raid encounters. I THINK YOU KNEW this would be the case going in, no real reason to worry about it now. :P