Socialized Medicine - Let's Discuss!

[Lune]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Paid taxes" yeah right.

And if you think people on welfare are a small minority you're wrong. They're a minority but hardly small.

And what about those who make just enough to not qualify for large insurance subsidies so they have to piss away a good chunk of their monthly income on insurance they can't use because of very high deductibles?

I'm talking about the concept of socialized medicine, aka universal healthcare, not the perverse cartel that is US healthcare and Obamacare. Being forced to buy into insurance middlemen who pull the strings of our political representatives is one of the most disgusting things I've ever witnessed, and it's no way to handle healthcare. I'd even prefer completely free market healthcare over what we have.

So to answer your question, insurance companies should not be involved at all. It's a completely parasitic industry.

[MrSparkle001]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm talking about the concept of socialized medicine, aka universal healthcare, not the perverse cartel that is US healthcare and Obamacare. Being forced to buy into insurance middlemen who pull the strings of our political representatives is one of the most disgusting things I've ever witnessed, and it's no way to handle healthcare. I'd even prefer completely free market healthcare over what we have.

So to answer your question, insurance companies should not be involved at all. It's a completely parasitic industry.

The concept of socialized medicine is wonderful. Free, quality healthcare for all? That's utopian.

But who would pay for it, how would you convince doctors to accept lower pay, and how would you convince prospective medical school students to spend all that money to go to medical school knowing they won't make enough money to pay back their loans?

Healthcare is big business and some of these doctors are making an absolute fortune. I'm not talking the small-town community doctor, I'm talking the specialists at NYU and such.

If the US converts to a single payer system doctors will leave the practice and others will be discouraged from pursuing the field at all. Money is a big driving force behind it, not necessarily the desire to help and heal their fellow man. Sad but true.

But yes in an ideal world not driven by greed universal healthcare is wonderful.

Oh and that ideal world does not include generations on welfare who expect government handouts. In an ideal world everyone would contribute and not just through sales tax on minor purchases.

[Lojik]

Single payer systems do have the advantage of reducing administration costs, which currently are about 25% of healthcare costs in the US (i read that somewhere, forget exactly.) The prices in the US are also jacked due to the effects of subsidies for health insurance and also student loans making med school cost a ton. Just to get back the money they spent on med school doctors have to charge an arm and a leg, while (if I'm not mistaken) a lot of European med schools are free. Also with how litigious American society is, doctors pay through the nose for malpractice insurance.

[Jarnauga]

Lune quoting Locke in a P99 thread, how about feeding pigs with caviar

Let's say i got a terminal disease. This disease has a cure. This cure costs something like 50 bucks to produce.

Now you're that company that sell the drug. And you sell it 10,000 bucks. The worst thing is, even if you know it's bullshit, you're gonna everything to find these 10,000 dollars, because it's either that or die.

Now if you think im exagerating things: not long in my own country a NGO called "medecins du monde" (doctors of the world) launch and ad campaign denouncing the margins practiced by big pharmaceutical companies. For example the margin on the leukemia cure is 20 000%. (whole website there, sorry it's in french: https://leprixdelavie.medecinsdumonde.org )

Now if you think it's okay, people making 20 000% margin betting on poor people will to live.. well, i don't want to be part of your world.

I pay a good chunk of my earning to get free healthcare, had to go to E/R not long ago, had full xrays and a free splint, plus one week of rest without losing any salary. I'm probably on the losing side since i'm still young and healthy, but don't care.

I actually remember seeing a good video about healthcare in the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

[Lojik]

Originally Posted by Jarnauga [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lune quoting Locke in a P99 thread, how about feeding pigs with caviar

Let's say i got a terminal disease. This disease has a cure. This cure costs something like 50 bucks to produce.

Now you're that company that sell the drug. And you sell it 10,000 bucks. The worst thing is, even if you know it's bullshit, you're gonna everything to find these 10,000 dollars, because it's either that or die.

Now if you think im exagerating things: not long in my own country a NGO called "medecins du monde" (doctors of the world) launch and ad campaign denouncing the margins practiced by big pharmaceutical companies. For example the margin on the leukemia cure is 20 000%. (whole website there, sorry it's in french: https://leprixdelavie.medecinsdumonde.org )

Now if you think it's okay, people making 20 000% margin betting on poor people will to live.. well, i don't want to be part of your world.

I pay a good chunk of my earning to get free healthcare, had to go to E/R not long ago, had full xrays and a free splint, plus one week of rest without losing any salary. I'm probably on the losing side since i'm still young and healthy, but don't care.

I actually remember seeing a good video about healthcare in the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

That cost is most likely just a marginal production cost and doesn't include fixed costs of r & d, which is the big part of the price tag for pharmaceuticals. You also have to factor in all the failed drugs that were researched and not approved or just failures.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Jarnauga [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lune quoting Locke in a P99 thread, how about feeding pigs with caviar

Let's say i got a terminal disease. This disease has a cure. This cure costs something like 50 bucks to produce.

Now you're that company that sell the drug. And you sell it 10,000 bucks. The worst thing is, even if you know it's bullshit, you're gonna everything to find these 10,000 dollars, because it's either that or die.

Now if you think im exagerating things: not long in my own country a NGO called "medecins du monde" (doctors of the world) launch and ad campaign denouncing the margins practiced by big pharmaceutical companies. For example the margin on the leukemia cure is 20 000%. (whole website there, sorry it's in french: https://leprixdelavie.medecinsdumonde.org )

Now if you think it's okay, people making 20 000% margin betting on poor people will to live.. well, i don't want to be part of your world.

I pay a good chunk of my earning to get free healthcare, had to go to E/R not long ago, had full xrays and a free splint, plus one week of rest without losing any salary. I'm probably on the losing side since i'm still young and healthy, but don't care.

I actually remember seeing a good video about healthcare in the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

How 'bout you develop and produce your own drugs? Yeah?

[Jarnauga]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How 'bout you develop and produce your own drugs? Yeah?

Sanofi S.A. is a French multinational pharmaceutical company headquartered in Gentilly, France, as of 2013 the world's fifth-largest by prescription sales.

"hurr durr murica owns everything derp"

Originally Posted by Lojik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That cost is most likely just a marginal production cost and doesn't include fixed costs of r & d, which is the big part of the price tag for pharmaceuticals. You also have to factor in all the failed drugs that were researched and not approved or just failures.

repeating the answer given by pharmaceutical lobbies eh ? r&d costs are overestimated and most of the time confidential, how convenient. Not even mentioning that in france at least, a good chunk of that r&d cost is financed by the government itself.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jarnauga]

Last thing before i go to bed:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

42% of profit margin for Pfizer, the largest company. That r&d sure costs a lot.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Jarnauga [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sanofi S.A. is a French multinational pharmaceutical company headquartered in Gentilly, France, as of 2013 the world's fifth-largest by prescription sales.

"hurr durr murica owns everything derp"



repeating the answer given by pharmaceutical lobbies eh ? r&d costs are overestimated and most of the time confidential, how convenient. Not even mentioning that in france at least, a good chunk of that r&d cost is financed by the government itself.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, no, no, no. I mean YOU, not some amoral French or American businessman. Start an ethical pharmaceutical firm and make yourself affordable leukemia cures.

On a more serious note, how many years of R&D do you think went into that drug?
What role do you think dissociation of cost-benefit plays in the price?
What do you think happens when the patent expires?
Do you like apples?

[Lojik]

repeating the answer given by pharmaceutical lobbies eh ? r&d costs are overestimated and most of the time confidential, how convenient. Not even mentioning that in france at least, a good chunk of that r&d cost is financed by the government itself.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean I'm probably one of the last people who would defend the current state of the pharmaceutical industry; I think there need to be some serious changes in the industry and other industries related to IP. However to present a case where the supposed margin is 20000% and then only give evidence for 40% perfectly illustrates my point that the bulk of the cost is research, not production.

A book I like is Against Intellectual Monopoly. There are some holes in their arguments for sure, but it presents an interesting case against strict IP laws.