ATTN: All Raiding Guilds

[Pan]

I think that the disagreement is more about splitting hairs than disagreeing.

First of all, you're only quoting one aspect of the training rules. Culk is interpreting them more broadly than you.

Q1: What is considered a "raid" on Project 1999?
A: A raid is any group of players looking to engage a raid target OR any force consisting of more than one group united in a common goal. This means that three people can be considered a raid if they intend to kill Dracoliche, or 20 people clearing fear trash. Most epic NPC's are not strictly considered "raid" mobs. The exception to this is Ragefire, which is considered a 'raid target' for the purposes of qualifying a group as a raid only. For all other intents and purposes, Ragefire is treated like an Epic NPC (IE, camp/poopsock rules do not apply). Please keep in mind that because of the need to clear to a raid target, trains enacted on players in the way of your raid are considered raid violations and action could be taken against your guild as a whole, regardless of whether the victims are part of a raid. It is in your best interest to be very careful when racing for a target, especially when it involves training away mobs.


Q2: What exactly is Raid Disruption or Raid Interference?
A: Q3 and Q4 deal with what to do when this happens, but "Raid disruption" and "raid interference" are broad terms that cover a long list of things (near simultaneous FTE, training, kill-stealing, setting of AEs on other people, any violation of the posted raid rules, etc).

Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone.

Also note that the communication in Q11 doesn't absolve responsibility even with communication. Unless you want to twist it.

For the sake of argument, assume that Culk is right in his interpretation. And leave it at that for a second.

On some level, for this thread, his "rightness" becomes irrelevant because we've all been called to this summit tomorrow to revisit and revamp the raid rules. And this thread seems to be the right venue to discuss changes and clarifications in advance.

I don't blame you guys for advocating for training in ToV. It's a mess mechanically there and it's in your best interest to try to change the raid rules to allow it.

Culk (and I and others) may fundamentally disagree with the approach as the rules read currently. And to say that we don't have a dog in the fight is short sighted. To wit, the way the rules read has prevented CSG from competing for targets like KT in Kael because it's impossible to do KT any other way given how fast he's pulled. And we were unwilling to train the rest of the zone, so that target is off the table for us. (And before you start telling me that stuff always goes to EW, that's patently untrue. We've eaten plenty of backwash at various times from both KT and Statue pulls - including raid wipes - since Velious release. Moreover, you (nor I) just cannot control who zones into EW and when, so therefore you run on a risk/reward basis (i.e. chances are low that people will be zoning in to Kael during - so therefore your risk of violating the training rule supersedes the potential reward from KT - and it's a risk you're willing to take) whereas CSG has chosen not to engage in that math but, instead, pass on that target because we're unwilling to assume the risk of willfully breaking the rules out of principle to compete on KT like you guys do.) And that's not insignificant nor unimportant.

But that doesn't mean it's not something that you should bring to the table tomorrow. Nor does it mean that this isn't the right place to make a case in advance. Nor does it mean that the rules might not need to be changed with zone mechanics in mind.

That said, amending the rules to allow/encourage training with impunity and/or without consequence might not be the only or best solution. There could be something a whole lot more elegant - or a whole lot more inconvenient that shakes out of this mess. And apparently we all have a voice in it.

Whatever does happen, though, we'll all need to adapt to whatever comes of it.

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In a VERY unrelated side note, I think we should all press Sirken early on to see if there's any hope of getting code amended. We know that is something he cannot do personally, but only suggest. If we can determine that's off (or on) the table from the very beginning, that will save (or cause) a lot of noise and keep the discussion better focused on what we actually have to work with in making the raid scene better and saner across the board.