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[Lazortag]

I just don't think you'd get a consistent full-time population. For most people pvp is something they like to have the option of doing occasionally, not something they want to live with constantly. Here's a poll on the eqemu site that I think attests to this:

» Current Poll
Favorite Server Type
PvP Only - 6.94%
60 Votes
Mostly PvP, Some PvE - 9.36%
81 Votes
PvE, Optional PvP - 43.24%
374 Votes
PvE Only - 40.46%

The "red guild" experiment was tried recently and at its peak, I think both red guilds had a combined total of like 50 casual players. And these aren't people who are very serious about pvp.

Another thing is that it's very discouraging to make a server that is bound to have so many bugs and issues with it. Right now there are many problems with pvp on p99 and few people do detailed bug reports about these problems (such as resist rates, melee damage, damage mitigation, spell messages, etc.) Another thing is that once a serious pvp server starts, it gets divided into two groups of people: people who are disadvantaged by bugs and people who are advantaged by bugs, endlessly bitching at each other about how things should be. This is exactly how it was on mortalquest (permadeath server started by Secrets; fun while it lasted).

Lastly, the devs here are likely very hesitant to just give out the source for p99 to another server. Lots of people have asked for the p99 database on various occasions, and for good reason: it's by far the highest quality server on eqemu with the most bugs fixed and the highest number of mechanics actually working as they should (have you ever tried playing a Bard on another server? On all the ones I've tried instruments don't even work. Seriously!) But if they just give away their source it defeats the purpose of all of their hard work, and disincentivizes others from working hard too.

I'm also not sure this community is the right one for a full pvp server, but surely abacab can tell you more about that.

[freakyuno]

My goal wasn't really to start a thread advocating pvp over pve, nor to imply that the dev's "should" start a pvp server, or even with the hopes that they "would" start a pvp server.

The goal of this thread was to open an option up. The server is free, high quality, and would be fully controlled by the dev's. They wouldn't be giving any of their IP away by doing it. I was just offering it up, no strings attached as an option.

Lots of good points were brought up about splitting bug time, staff, players...etc. I didnt think about any of that, nor am I really worried about it because ultimatly it's not my decision. The part that was my decision was about like this in my head:

"If you want a PvP server either roll your own, or get someone that knows what their doing and offer to help in some way". Thats about as far as I took it. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Yak]

Originally Posted by freakyuno [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My goal wasn't really to start a thread advocating pvp over pve, nor to imply that the dev's "should" start a pvp server, or even with the hopes that they "would" start a pvp server.

The goal of this thread was to open an option up. The server is free, high quality, and would be fully controlled by the dev's. They wouldn't be giving any of their IP away by doing it. I was just offering it up, no strings attached as an option.

Lots of good points were brought up about splitting bug time, staff, players...etc. I didnt think about any of that, nor am I really worried about it because ultimatly it's not my decision. The part that was my decision was about like this in my head:

"If you want a PvP server either roll your own, or get someone that knows what their doing and offer to help in some way". Thats about as far as I took it. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Before going through all this effort, why not start a poll and see how many people would be interested? To be honest, i think you would be lucky to get over 10 dedicated players.

[freakyuno]

Originally Posted by Yak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Before going through all this effort, why not start a poll and see how many people would be interested? To be honest, i think you would be lucky to get over 10 dedicated players.

We'll like I said before. My goal was not to try to prove or determine, or create a "cause" for a pvp server. Only provide the means to get one, if the developers thought it was in their best interest.

[karsten]

I'd hop over to the pvp server in a heartbeat, provided we can figure out a way to keep people from warriortracking and such!

[Dr4z3r]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lastly, the devs here are likely very hesitant to just give out the source for p99 to another server. ... But if they just give away their source it defeats the purpose of all of their hard work, and disincentivizes others from working hard too.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but this, sir, is grade-A bullshit.

1 - Giving it away absolutely would not defeat the purpose of their hard work: P99 would still be the only classic server hitting 800 people every night, and would still be the only server with a dedicated GM and dev staff that actually changes and updates things as they come up. It would always be head-and-shoulders above imitators in both quantity of players and quality of play experience.

2 - It disincentivizes others from working hard? Are you serious? Imagine if Leibniz and Newton had said "no, go invent your own damn calculus, moochers!"

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Dr4z3r [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1 - Giving it away absolutely would not defeat the purpose of their hard work: P99 would still be the only classic server hitting 800 people every night, and would still be the only server with a dedicated GM and dev staff that actually changes and updates things as they come up. It would always be head-and-shoulders above imitators in both quantity of players and quality of play experience.

2 - It disincentivizes others from working hard? Are you serious? Imagine if Leibniz and Newton had said "no, go invent your own damn calculus, moochers!"

I'm not sure what was so unreasonable about what I said. P99 is really the only server of remotely acceptable quality for anyone who's ever actually played the real game. The other servers are clunky and poorly coded with tons of obvious bugs. Basically giving out the source rewards people who don't work hard and makes their servers more popular than they should be, in relation to the amount of effort they put in.

As for the second point -- have you ever heard of patent laws? The whole point of measures like those is to increase competition and encourage innovation. In the case of P99, not giving out the source is a good policy because it means devs of other servers are forced to come up with fixes of their own rather than waiting on nilbog to do it for them eventually.

I don't think mathematical discoveries are really very analogous to the kinds of discoveries we have patents for (like technology, medicine, etc.), mostly because mathematicians tend to be rewarded more for just making the discoveries, as opposed to the profits they would earn from having a monopoly on who can use those discoveries. Maybe this isn't a really convincing argument. Whatever.

edit: also, I think it was nice of the OP to offer the resources for a pvp server. It's not his fault that he isn't 100% aware of every issue with starting such a server.

[Dr4z3r]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure what was so unreasonable about what I said.

I just don't think you're giving very serious thought to what you're saying:

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P99 is really the only server of remotely acceptable quality for anyone who's ever actually played the real game. The other servers are clunky and poorly coded with tons of obvious bugs. Basically giving out the source rewards people who don't work hard and makes their servers more popular than they should be, in relation to the amount of effort they put in.

Your whole preconception of how popular a server "should be" aside, I fail to see how running a P99 clone could be construed as any kind of reward. Do you really think a significant chunk of Project 1999 players would jump ship to a server that's always going to be at least a day behind? And even then, what does the person running the clone server have to gain from that? More whining petitions? Woo.

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As for the second point -- have you ever heard of patent laws? The whole point of measures like those is to increase competition and encourage innovation. In the case of P99, not giving out the source is a good policy because it means devs of other servers are forced to come up with fixes of their own rather than waiting on nilbog to do it for them eventually.

You're right that patents were created to increase competition and innovation, but what you're missing is that they do that by forcing people to publicly document and disclose the invention being patented. We have patents because innovation and competition are severely stifled when inventions and solutions to problems are kept strictly secret.

Take, for example "devs of other servers are forced to come up with fixes of their own rather than waiting on nilbog to do it for them eventually," and your anecdote about instruments not working. P99 has figured out how to fix that. Other servers haven't. What is gained by forcing the other servers' devs to figure out their own fix?

Or, more simply, what part of the invention of the wheel is so important that you think it's good to make everyone do it for themselves?

tl;dr I think P99 would do well to go (partially?) open-source