Blade of Carnage drop on beta

[Treats]

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They absolutely zerged him.

They couldn't tank Avatar of War with NToV shit and didn't UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE THE NEXT FUCKING EXPANSION.

It boggles my mind how some of you think he could be killable in BiS Kunark gear.

They were probably just bads that had no clue what they were doing I guess.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It boggles my mind how some of you think he could be killable in BiS Kunark gear.

The Avatar of War has a max hit of 704 against a defensive warrior. If he got unbelievably incredibly lucky, and got 8 attack rounds with 8 hits and 8 max hits, he would still not 1-round a tank with 5617 HP. Kunark tanks are damn close to this right now.

Guilds had trouble tanking him in Velious because of their shitty internet connections. If your CH chain gets lagged out for 1s (easy to do in 2000) and he gets 2-3 attack rounds in, your tank is going to die.

I personally would like to see AoW buffed a bit compared to his beta stats, but the reality is if his stats are anything close to classic he's going to die on day one to a 200 man zerg.

You really need to accept the fact that we have better GUIs, better internet connections, and more experience at this game than people did in 2000 and let go of the butthurt.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guilds had trouble tanking him in Velious because of their shitty internet connections. If your CH chain gets lagged out for 1s (easy to do in 2000) and he gets 2-3 attack rounds in, your tank is going to die.

I personally would like to see AoW buffed a bit compared to his beta stats, but the reality is if his stats are anything close to classic he's going to die on day one to a 200 man zerg.

You really need to accept the fact that we have better GUIs, better internet connections, and more experience at this game than people did in 2000 and let go of the butthurt.

Please tell me, in what game do you take the BiS gear from a previous expansion and go straight to the bosses of the next expansion and kill them on day fucking 1?

The developers at Verant/Sony would have been fired if this ever happened (some of them were anyway).

They must of had connections strung with wire and duct tape at their offices during their pre-beta testing, thats why they couldn't kill AoW with their BiS Kunark gears!!

Yes, you have more experience on P1999, however that is not experience from an actual Verant server.

GTFO with the butthurt, sorry I side with the NPC's more than the Players.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please tell me, in what game do you take the BiS gear from a previous expansion and go straight to the bosses of the next expansion and kill them on day fucking 1?

Our situation here is a somewhat unique because we have prior knowledge of the expansion.

Originally Posted by Treats

GTFO with the butthurt, sorry I side with the NPC's more than the Players.

I don't know how else to describe your emotional appeals to the intentions of Verant's developers rather than the actual mechanics they created.

[Tankdan]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please tell me, in what game do you take the BiS gear from a previous expansion and go straight to the bosses of the next expansion and kill them on day fucking 1?

The developers at Verant/Sony would have been fired if this ever happened (some of them were anyway).

They must of had connections strung with wire and duct tape at their offices during their pre-beta testing, thats why they couldn't kill AoW with their BiS Kunark gears!!

Yes, you have more experience on P1999, however that is not experience from an actual Verant server.

GTFO with the butthurt, sorry I side with the NPC's more than the Players.

You're giving EQ mobs way too much credit. And the AoW kill on beta people were getting AOE rezzed, it DID rek the tanks. It was a wipe by all means. If 140 epic'd people cant zerge it in the unthinkable gear they had, you cannot sit here and say its undertuned. His max hits are well known, his HP is known, after that it is a mana and numbers game.

We're playing a whole different EQ right now. Raids have 80 reapers, 30+ soullfires, 20+ charged mallets to hand out, and all kinds of tricks up their sleeve. No, it is not that hard. Yes it was hard back in the day because people were a lot less hardcore than they are now. No guild on EQClassic even comes close to the effort / time / dedication needed to raid Class C on P99. Who cares what some guild did or didn't do in 2000, I don't. I just want accurate numbers reflected. It wasn't meant to be harder.

[koros]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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They absolutely zerged him.

They couldn't tank Avatar of War with NToV shit and didn't UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE THE NEXT FUCKING EXPANSION.

It boggles my mind how some of you think he could be killable in BiS Kunark gear.

They were probably just bads that had no clue what they were doing I guess.

What exactly are you trying to show with those links? Because you seem to be arguing against your own point. Those are from july 2001. During which time, Legacy of Steel had absolutely 0 NToV loot, and they still got AoW that low. You guys can poke holes in our "theorycrafting" all you want, but math is math and eq is a game of basic math and statistics. Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

[Ele]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What exactly are you trying to show with those links? Because you seem to be arguing against your own point. Those are from july 2001. During which time, Legacy of Steel had absolutely 0 NToV loot, and they still got AoW that low. You guys can poke holes in our "theorycrafting" all you want, but math is math and eq is a game of basic math and statistics. Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

LoS had been farming Sleeper's for over a month by July 2001 and pioneered the Dozekar tear quests earlier than that. They had been killing vindi/statue/tormax/dain for months.

For the July 27 kill: The Avatar of War proved to be no match for the joint forces of Shock of Swords and Legacy of Steel in an epic battle that lasted for over 30 minutes.

The attempt they had 2 weeks earlier, they had a joint raid with Shock of Swords and Paragons of Fury.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

His cooldown is just over 1 second here.

[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 372 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Detoxx!
---
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 325 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Detoxx!
---
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:23 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:23 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:23 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
---
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:24 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.

So yeah, he's overtuned [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Just like the resist system is ridiculously overtuned right now (we should be resisting way more than 20% of Sontalak's fire AE and 50% of his fears with max FR/MR) but I like it that way for a bit more challenge. I just get irritated at people who bring up these vague classic memories and act like those should be some sort of proof standard.

Lets also not forget class composition here is way better than on Live. We don't have raids full of Pal/Dru/Sk etc.

[Nirgon]

Need to post parses or stfu at this point

I'll dump what I got tonite

But this prob needs a dev pal to get a good long parse

Anyone got a lvl 60 warrior in abouts full Kael armor on live or on test? I can ask the faceless order pals for logs if maybe they got some from eqlive test with in era gear.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What exactly are you trying to show with those links? Because you seem to be arguing against your own point. Those are from july 2001. During which time, Legacy of Steel had absolutely 0 NToV loot, and they still got AoW that low. You guys can poke holes in our "theorycrafting" all you want, but math is math and eq is a game of basic math and statistics. Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

How am I arguing against my own point, they were attempting and zerging him using Frozen Jesus.

His Atk Delay should be 1600 or 1700ms.

Sure, you can say EQ is a game of basic math and statistics. How many times then in a 30-60 minute fight do you think Avatar of War is going to max quad/flurry/bash/kick a tank for at or just below his maximum HP and kill him? How many times is a cleric going to be half a second late or half a second early on Complete Heal?

You're giving EQ mobs way too much credit. And the AoW kill on beta people were getting AOE rezzed, it DID rek the tanks. It was a wipe by all means. If 140 epic'd people cant zerge it in the unthinkable gear they had, you cannot sit here and say its undertuned. His max hits are well known, his HP is known, after that it is a mana and numbers game.

Those values that are known don't mean much. ATK and AC of the NPC determine mana efficiency, how many errors you can afford to make healing, and the length of the fight.

The server has always been backwards in terms of difficulty. The game is tuned from easy to hard when it should be the other way around. I don't blame the devs at all though, its a very difficult task when some the main components of what made the formulas work on live are unknown.

This is what I would start with:

Increase all notable NPCs ATK
Most hits would be for (DI-2) non Defensive and (DI-1) Defensive on a max Kunark AC value
(DI-x) would raise x as AC is increased from BiS Velious gear
Avoidance lowered depending on NPC/PC level difference

Increase all notable NPCs AC
DPS reduction of somewhere between 25% to 40% without Avatar
15% to 30% with Avatar