What's the beef with boxing?

[kildone]

Glenzig

You miss the point. I would not feel the need to box just because I could. I might desire to box if there was no other way I could play certain classes when no groups are available.

I might be wrong but I seem to read a lot on the forums about how you don't want to play certain classes because nobody will invite you.

[sox7d]

Whatever, I'll bite.

The "play by yourself, together" trend in MMOs has turned the genre from immersive worlds to putting a hose in your mouth that shoots a stead stream of shallow-gratification down your throat. Everquest, FFXI, UO, SWG had bullshit in them. Sometimes it took the form of long leveling, difficult, scattered quests, class imbalance, darkness, inability to solo, no maps, harsh death penalties or dependent transportation. But each of those things, while inconvenient, added something to the game.

Long leveling gave prestige
Difficult, scattered quests gave accomplishment
Class imbalance gave personality
Darkness gave realism
Inability to solo gave community
No maps gave immersion
Harsh death penalties gave emotion
Dependent transportation gave ecology

Maybe its not for everyone, but memorable games need bullshit. Think of it like a cake. A cake consists of two parts, the somewhat unpalatable, spongy bread ("bullshit") and the sweet frosting (leveling up, gear upgrades, convenience). Everyone can agree that the frosting tastes better than the cake itself, but what recent MMORPGS have done is just throw a tub of frosting at the player and tell them to dig in. They get to max level by themselves after a month, then they quit and never think about Age of Conan, SW:TOR, TERA, Aion, Warhammer, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Rift, Wildstar or Final Fantasy XIV ever again.

Throw two-boxing into the mix, players now play with themselves and community turns to shit like every other MMORPG out there.

"But you don't have to two-box"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to find a group now, wait until 1/4 of the server is two-boxing. Then more people will be fed up with the LFG times and start boxing which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

P1999 is the last bastion of bullshit, and I'll be damned if anyone takes any of it away.

[Tann]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"But you don't have to two-box"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to find a group now, wait until 1/4 of the server is two-boxing. Then more people will be fed up with the LFG times and start boxing which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

"But you don't have to play an enchanter or a shaman"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to solo now, wait until 1/4 of the server is enc/shm. Then more people will be fed up with not getting loot camps and start a shaman or enchanter which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

[kildone]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Whatever, I'll bite.

The "play by yourself, together" trend in MMOs has turned the genre from immersive worlds to putting a hose in your mouth that shoots a stead stream of shallow-gratification down your throat. Everquest, FFXI, UO, SWG had bullshit in them. Sometimes it took the form of long leveling, difficult, scattered quests, class imbalance, darkness, inability to solo, no maps, harsh death penalties or dependent transportation. But each of those things, while inconvenient, added something to the game.

Long leveling gave prestige
Difficult, scattered quests gave accomplishment
Class imbalance gave personality
Darkness gave realism
Inability to solo gave community
No maps gave immersion
Harsh death penalties gave emotion
Dependent transportation gave ecology

Maybe its not for everyone, but memorable games need bullshit. Think of it like a cake. A cake consists of two parts, the somewhat unpalatable, spongy bread ("bullshit") and the sweet frosting (leveling up, gear upgrades, convenience). Everyone can agree that the frosting tastes better than the cake itself, but what recent MMORPGS have done is just throw a tub of frosting at the player and tell them to dig in. They get to max level by themselves after a month, then they quit and never think about Age of Conan, SW:TOR, TERA, Aion, Warhammer, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Rift, Wildstar or Final Fantasy XIV ever again.

Throw two-boxing into the mix, players now play with themselves and community turns to shit like every other MMORPG out there.

"But you don't have to two-box"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to find a group now, wait until 1/4 of the server is two-boxing. Then more people will be fed up with the LFG times and start boxing which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

P1999 is the last bastion of bullshit, and I'll be damned if anyone takes any of it away.

I am still not convinced that just because boxing is allowed that people will. Many say this but nobody offers examples. Are there specific games or periods in those games that it was demonstrated that huge groups of people will box if allowed to? By no means do I have extensive knowledge or experience on the subject and would appreciate more specifics to back up the generalities.

Especially on a server like P99, where so many including myself enjoy the community spirit of grouping, I do not know that it would be a problem.

On live I played a cleric with a good reputation and could always find a group within minutes of logging in. I knew folks though who would sit for two or more hours practically begging for a group. I knew other folks who would two box while looking for a group instead and stop boxing as soon as a group was available. I have never known anyone who would say they don't want a group and would rather box. Those folks who wanted to play alone would play a class that could solo.

[sox7d]

Originally Posted by Tann [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"But you don't have to play an enchanter or a shaman"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to solo now, wait until 1/4 of the server is enc/shm. Then more people will be fed up with not getting loot camps and start a shaman or enchanter which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

Never seen a chanter or shaman monopolize a group-typical exp camp in CB, BB, Unrest, MM, CoM or KC. They're also quite prone to grouping with other people which likely wouldn't be the case if two-boxing was allowed, or best yet, fill a space at a busy camp "because I need my monk to stay the same level as my sham."

[kildone]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...but recent MMORPGS have done is just throw a tub of frosting at the player and tell them to dig in. They get to max level by themselves after a month, then they quit and never think about Age of Conan, SW:TOR, TERA, Aion, Warhammer, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Rift, Wildstar or Final Fantasy XIV ever again.

These examples seem more related to game mechanics and design and not about boxing. I don't think progressing on this train of though directly to boxing can be made logically without more evidence.

[kildone]

One last argument on 'if boxing was allowed...' People do box on P99 if they want to. I think it is the players themselves and not the rules or the enforcement that keeps boxing to such a minimum here.

It is more likely that the benefit of the rule is that it is a banner that has drawn like minded players together to one place.

[sox7d]

Originally Posted by kildone [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still not convinced that just because boxing is allowed that people will. Many say this but nobody offers examples. Are there specific games or periods in those games that it was demonstrated that huge groups of people will box if allowed to? By no means do I have extensive knowledge or experience on the subject and would appreciate more specifics to back up the generalities.

Especially on a server like P99, where so many including myself enjoy the community spirit of grouping, I do not know that it would be a problem.

On live I played a cleric with a good reputation and could always find a group within minutes of logging in. I knew folks though who would sit for two or more hours practically begging for a group. I knew other folks who would two box while looking for a group instead and stop boxing as soon as a group was available. I have never known anyone who would say they don't want a group and would rather box. Those folks who wanted to play alone would play a class that could solo.

Shards of Dalaya, a classic-inspired server, nearly everyone has a box.

Two-boxing is an outright advantage, and once some people elect to use that advantage, that puts the uninvolved at a disadvantage comparatively on the server.

When PoP was released and PoK was only available if you bought the expansion, everyone did even if they were pre-46, because they didn't want to be at a disadvantage.

The people that want two boxing on this server fall into two groups.
Those that have drank the koolaid of MMORPGs in the past 10 years and just want their frosting bucket and those that have been max level on P99 for too long and can't see any satisfaction in the game short of hording more money or 60 alts.

[sox7d]

Originally Posted by kildone [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These examples seem more related to game mechanics and design and not about boxing. I don't think progressing on this train of though directly to boxing can be made logically without more evidence.

"I hate when I can't find a group, I wish I could box so I can level at any time."

"A massive list of games where any class can get max level by themselves with their eyes closed has nothing to do with boxing."

You're fucking retarded.

[kildone]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"I hate when I can't find a group, I wish I could box so I can level at any time."

"A massive list of games where any class can get max level by themselves with their eyes closed has nothing to do with boxing."

You're fucking retarded.

Some people like to jump to conclusions bridging gaps with theory and speculation. Some people like to theorize and speculate but remain objective and prefer a more scientific approach to passing from hypothesis to fact.

People from the first group often lash out at those in the second group when those in the second group hesitate to make the leap with them.

Thank you for your initial posts they were great starters for a good discussion. The last post does little to advance your argument.