Stop the Socking

[khanable]

Originally Posted by Komodon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That being the people who would represent Class R as a whole and need to sign off on this type of proposal...have never shown any interest in doing so.

TMO and IB both spoke to me about trying to get accessible raid engagement rules set in stone when this CoTH ducking crap started (this was back when I was on the R forums + an officer of BDA). Yes, the reason nothing got anywhere is because a few entities in R would rather see FFA be shit than do anything that is a net gain for TMO/IB (despite it being a net gain for everyone).

It was pretty sad honestly.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TMO and IB both spoke to me about trying to get accessible raid engagement rules set in stone when this CoTH ducking crap started. Yes, the reason nothing got anywhere is because a few entities in R would rather see FFA be shit than do anything that is a net gain for TMO/IB (despite it being a net gain for everyone).

It was pretty sad honestly.

Cucs we just had this conversation yesterday! CotH ducking, foot races, it doesn't matter. The fundamental problem is the socking. Foot races may be more palatable than using mages but it doesn't change the fact that you'll still need a raid force sitting and waiting for up to 16 hours to capitalize on the FTE. There has to be sweeping changes not just swapping one shitty option for another slightly less shitty option.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Cucs we just had this conversation yesterday! CotH ducking, foot races, it doesn't matter. The fundamental problem is the socking. Foot races may be more palatable than using mages but it doesn't change the fact that you'll still need a raid force sitting and waiting for up to 16 hours to capitalize on the FTE. There has to be sweeping changes not just swapping one shitty option for another slightly less shitty option.

I'll agree socking is an issue due to long windows. I won't agree to the foot race = coth ducking = it's all bad rhetoric. Ya'll won't even come to the table to talk about it because something something fuck TMO/IB we'd rather propose this option that fucks C out of x% mobs and fuck them if they won't work with us and something something stop demonizing us for maintaining a shitty FFA scene while not even being willing to try to talk about resolutions unless it benefits us massively blah blah blah

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll agree socking is an issue due to long windows. I won't agree to the foot race = coth ducking = it's all bad rhetoric. Ya'll won't even come to the table to talk about it because something something fuck TMO/IB we'd rather propose this option that fucks C out of x% mobs and fuck them if they won't work with us and something something stop demonizing us for maintaining a shitty FFA scene while not even being willing to try to talk about resolutions unless it benefits us massively blah blah blah

I don't want anything to benefit class R massively!! I even concede the point that class C should get more loot if they want to dedicate more extreme amounts of time.

In the current system class C is getting 75% for the raid targets when you include the class C share, the 90% of FFA mobs they take down, and 100% of VP targets. If we changed the entire system to C/R and FFA on repops while keeping the current bag limits and keeping VP a class C playground class C would still get 65-70% of the kills.

Everyone keeps saying sweeping changes are off the table, but if ALL the guilds came together for the first time in server history I'm confident changes could be made. Unprecedented cooperation would spur unprecedented action.

The counter to this Unbrella generously offered to make it C/C/R which then be more like 80% of the kills for class C, but hey at least we don't have any overlap between tiers right?

I want things to be better, I'm working in good faith but so far I've only seen class C say "you can just concede everything and that would be fine" or they've stamped off on an alt guild to crash the class R rotation for the sheer purpose of undermining the system currently implemented.

What else can I do to fix this?? I'm trying here man. This isn't rhetoric, these are all facts.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't want anything to benefit class R massively!! I even concede the point that class C should get more loot if they want to dedicate more extreme amounts of time.

In the current system class C is getting 75% for the raid targets when you include the class C share, the 90% of FFA mobs they take down, and 100% of VP targets. If we changed the entire system to C/R and FFA on repops while keeping the current bag limits and keeping VP a class C playground class C would still get 65-70% of the kills.

Everyone keeps saying sweeping changes are off the table, but if ALL the guilds came together for the first time in server history I'm confident changes could be made. Unprecedented cooperation would spur unprecedented action.

The counter to this Unbrella generously offered to make it C/C/R which then be more like 80% of the kills for class C, but hey at least we don't have any overlap between tiers right?

I want things to be better, I'm working in good faith but so far I've only seen class C say "you can just concede everything and that would be fine" or they've stamped off on an alt guild to crash the class R rotation for the sheer purpose of undermining the system currently implemented.

What else can I do to fix this?? I'm trying here man. This isn't rhetoric, these are all facts.

So here is the issue

C/R means less for C, no matter how much less

C/C/R means less for R, no matter how much less

Don't write these gains/loses off as trivial - you guys can figure out a way to keep them equal. Get that out of the way and then move onto the other issues.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So here is the issue

C/R means less for C, no matter how much less

C/C/R means less for R, no matter how much less

Don't write these gains/loses off as trivial - you guys can figure out a way to keep them equal. Get that out of the way and then move onto the other issues.

I'm not writing them off as trivial but the Class C side has the leverage because they know if they do nothing the status quo remains and they'll still get their 75%. Throughout the history of this server the hardcore side has only done what was best for the minority of hardcore players.

BDA could have had that same mindset and just ran roughshod over the class R system, get as much as possible, but we along with the other guilds wanted to make changes and we've effectively done so to the detriment of our possible pixel gains. In fact we're still mocked for raiding in this fashion to the point where TMO is allowing an alt guild to exist for the sole purpose of wrecking this effort.

Unbrella, do you even care what happens to this server? Because constantly shitting on the playerbase taking taking taking taking and giving no fucks has been the usual message the hardcore players have had since day 1.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

they know if they do nothing the status quo remains and they'll still get their 75%. Throughout the history of this server the hardcore side has only done what was best for the minority of hardcore players.

To be fair, this was entirely Catherin's (and several other Class R guilds) approach when these talks were originally stalling and Class C was desperately looking to move things forward.

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unbrella, do you even care what happens to this server? Because constantly shitting on the playerbase taking taking taking taking and giving no fucks has been the usual message the hardcore players have had since day 1.

I'm not here to discuss what I believe in or my vision for the server, which is much different than you think it is. What I am here to do is represent the interests of Class-C in the most mutually favorable and accommodating way to Class-R.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't want anything to benefit class R massively!! I even concede the point that class C should get more loot if they want to dedicate more extreme amounts of time.

In the current system class C is getting 75% for the raid targets when you include the class C share, the 90% of FFA mobs they take down, and 100% of VP targets. If we changed the entire system to C/R and FFA on repops while keeping the current bag limits and keeping VP a class C playground class C would still get 65-70% of the kills.

Everyone keeps saying sweeping changes are off the table, but if ALL the guilds came together for the first time in server history I'm confident changes could be made. Unprecedented cooperation would spur unprecedented action.

The counter to this Unbrella generously offered to make it C/C/R which then be more like 80% of the kills for class C, but hey at least we don't have any overlap between tiers right?

I want things to be better, I'm working in good faith but so far I've only seen class C say "you can just concede everything and that would be fine" or they've stamped off on an alt guild to crash the class R rotation for the sheer purpose of undermining the system currently implemented.

What else can I do to fix this?? I'm trying here man. This isn't rhetoric, these are all facts.

Maybe it's just early, but can you explain how a C/FFA/R system results in more than class C guilds getting more than 66% of total mobs? Even on repops the R mobs are protected...

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe it's just early, but can you explain how a C/FFA/R system results in more than class C guilds getting more than 66% of total mobs? Even on repops the R mobs are protected...

I did the math before, I think it was earlier in this thread even, but assuming there's 4 repops a month (I know, magical ChristmasLand) class C is getting 1/3 of the normal pops, 90% of anything FFA, and 100% of VP mobs (that's 48 potential kills right there) which is basically 75% of all potential kills. Plus, I didn't even factor in efreetis in sky.