Stop the Socking

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But... Baby steps.

I can get behind 2 in zone to tag, foot racers. No CotH.

Though I do think requiring new people to know the designated start point to tag in every zone is a bit much. Just make them logical points. Does Class C have points for all this stuff since you don't CotH?

Gore = KC Ent (on the brick/stone platform)
Sev = FoB zone line (what's a geographical object that can be used as a milestone so people don't creep up)
Tal = On OT ramp
Faydedar = On Ogre island land (or you can do on Chessboard if you want to get closer so that that pull isn't 20 minutes)
VS = DL Ent (behind bridge)
Nagafen = Entrance (not past first turn... IE you shouldn't see a kobold)
Vox = Entrance (not past first turn... IE you shouldn't see the ramp)
CT/Inny/Maestro/Draco = Not in zone
Trakanon = Not in zone... No preformed CotH groups. (The poopsocking on this must die, figure out ideas on how to get that to happen without people herpderp training all the way down to him...)

I think that's something most could agree to. Just need to clarify foot race. All classes/movement speeds allowed? Can druids/wizards evac themselves and/or taggers if the evac point is advantageous?

Yeah those look like good areas. Again I would tackle Trak separately. It really does need it's own specific discussion.

[Raev]

Look, if you are going to have two people footrace from the zone in for VS, then by definition everyone else has to be at the login screen. There is no good solution.

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Lazie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I appreciate your perspective and somewhat false rhetoric to push your agenda. However again changing it to C/R then FFA on repops does nothing but lose mobs over time for Class R when you include the Class R mobs on repops. The change you guys are asking for does nothing to help up and coming guilds enter the raid scene. You are actually taking mobs away from the Class specified for them to wet their feet in raiding.

New up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

So right now, without any changes to anything, up and coming guilds have 3 very clear options.

Changing things to R/C Repop=FFA, new up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

There is zero difference in terms of a new guild's ability to enter the raid scene.

What we have been discussing in THIS thread is getting rid of the necessity of socking spawns.

Yes, a new up and coming guild who wants to enter the mix of the current FFA environment has to break down the invisible player made walls of :

1. mage face trackers ( plvl a guild owned account to share)
2. potential COH duck wars ( FU Taken)
3. poopsocking ( FU Taken)

New up and coming guilds who want to enter the mix of the proposed FFA scene would have to break down the invisible EQ made walls of:

1. Raid bosses spawn in various zones and in hostile environments, requires travel or teleportation and to proceed with caution and strategy
2. Alerting your guild members of the mobs presence, mostly via text message or email
3. Having proper resists and gear required to zerg down the raid boss

Thats the beauty of this proposed solution to socking.

There would be no more invisible player made walls, only the walls this game created for the players.

New up and coming guilds would be able to enter both the Raid scene ( choose R, Lord Bob style or C) and the new FFA scene with relative ease no matter their gear make up, roster size or availability.

What they can accomplish would be up to them, but there would be nothing limiting them in regards to what this proposal entails.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Lazie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I appreciate your perspective and somewhat false rhetoric to push your agenda. However again changing it to C/R then FFA on repops does nothing but lose mobs over time for Class R when you include the Class R mobs on repops. The change you guys are asking for does nothing to help up and coming guilds enter the raid scene. You are actually taking mobs away from the Class specified for them to wet their feet in raiding.

The changes needed to promote this and this alone are not what you guys are promoting. You are promoting a system that largely benefits large guilds. If I was worried about my loot I would say keep things the way they were. I have already given you the best thing to push for.

Except with the simple math I showed you, it doesn't take anything from Class R guilds. Quite to the contrary.

Their Class R target count would stay identical to what it is now. The only way this is false, is if we suddenly get an up-tick in the amount of sim repops we get, increasing beyond 2-3 a month. Nothing indicates the amount of sim repops is increasing.

The reason it is actually gaining mobs for Class R guilds is on a repop the 4~ FFA targets won't immediately be gobbled up by TMO, IB, BDA, Taken and Dicinity. With every non-VP spawn being FFA every Class R guild capable of a solo kill can likely get an FFA kill before they are all dead. Those who are very small and new, like MC or Indignation, can team up to get an FFA kill. Something that isn't possible or likely with the current System.

I'm not speaking in false rhetoric. Just cold hard numbers. Numbers which anyone who plays on this server can see and understand.

No where did I state it allows new, up in coming guilds to enter the raid scene... But it does. That entry point is Class R. With a Class R mob every other week, as opposed to every 3rd week, they have a more fixed time period to try a Class R mob and enter the scene.

Also these are static times, the 22nd of the month for example, and you know for sure it will be that day (especially if variance is reduced). This allows those smaller guilds who likely don't have all-day/week raid forces, to alert their guilds and set aside a time to be present for the raid mob. With the current system a single sim repop can screw that up for them. (Although somewhat unlikely) The Dracoliche they wanted to try on a Thursday evening spawned instead early Wednesday AM. Now they need to figure out a new time to attempt that mob. If you don't think having a specific time slot you know a mob will spawn in so that people can arrange to be present isn't a big deal for casual guilds, I suggest you join one for a few months and look at everyone's play time. Advanced notice is crucial to solid attendance for casual guilds. Sim repops can completely disrupt that. Also large variance screws it up even more.

Here are the facts:

1. C/R and C/R/FFA is the SAME number of Class R mob spawns every year given we stay at the current 2 sim repops per month (which has held true since its implementation)
2. Removal of FFA cycle would remove CotHing since Class C has self proclaimed eradicated it from your competition (though jury is still out on 4 AM VS...)
3. Class R will continue doing what it does with no poopsocking
4. Class C will continue what it does with their SoW foot races (removal of poopsocking VS and Trak is up to your guilds)
5. Full FFA on respawn will mean there are 12 targets outside of VP to go after.
6. During Full FFA respawns there are more targets available meaning the larger guilds cannot easily block everyone from getting a kill. (Like they can and do when there are only 4 targets to go after) This will lead to smaller guilds getting more time and chances to get FFA kills.
7. Solves the FFA poopsocking issues without adding further rules like 2 taggers or starting lines for the race etc. Since FFA competition becomes respawns exclusively.

Will this change all of a sudden see Moonlight Crusaders getting VS and Indignation getting Trak. No. It may not even see them getting Maestro. But it will give them the option and likely their best shot in an FFA scenario to go after Maestro or Draco or Talendor or Faydedar. If they wish that is.

If the FFA game is just not their cup of tea and they say no thanks to early morning batphones. NO PROBLEM. Your Class R mobs will spawn with the same frequency at a guaranteed time window that no sim repop will disrupt.

All of those facts are known to everyone on this server, whether you want to admit that or not.

What is suggested is the most simple and clean way to keep Class R spawns equivalent, so as to not interrupt the small guilds you so desperately champion for. While removing the clash of two different play styles that don't play nice together (no more CotHing, unless Class C wants to). It also would remove poopsocking unless Class C wishes to persist doing that in their spawns (Class R rotation never sock and you can't sock a respawn). It would include more people in respawns, since right now the limited number of FFA targets prevent most smaller R guilds from partaking.

It loses Class C spawns, Yep. You may have to work faster on a respawn to snake that next CT from BDA. But guess what, Class R is growing... And Class C is stagnating. A small shift in proportions isn't the end of the world, it's logical. Indignation, Omni and MC now occupy slots in rotations when they didn't before. They'll keep their amount of R spawns and have some shots at FFA spawns that they didn't before.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except with the simple math I showed you, it doesn't take anything from Class R guilds. Quite to the contrary.

Their Class R target count would stay identical to what it is now. The only way this is false, is if we suddenly get an up-tick in the amount of sim repops we get, increasing beyond 2-3 a month. Nothing indicates the amount of sim repops is increasing.

The reason it is actually gaining mobs for Class R guilds is on a repop the 4~ FFA targets won't immediately be gobbled up by TMO, IB, BDA, Taken and Dicinity. With every non-VP spawn being FFA every Class R guild capable of a solo kill can likely get an FFA kill before they are all dead. Those who are very small and new, like MC or Indignation, can team up to get an FFA kill. Something that isn't possible or likely with the current System.

I'm not speaking in false rhetoric. Just cold hard numbers. Numbers which anyone who plays on this server can see and understand.

No where did I state it allows new, up in coming guilds to enter the raid scene... But it does. That entry point is Class R. With a Class R mob every other week, as opposed to every 3rd week, they have a more fixed time period to try a Class R mob and enter the scene.

Also these are static times, the 22nd of the month for example, and you know for sure it will be that day (especially if variance is reduced). This allows those smaller guilds who likely don't have all-day/week raid forces, to alert their guilds and set aside a time to be present for the raid mob. With the current system a single sim repop can screw that up for them. (Although somewhat unlikely) The Dracoliche they wanted to try on a Thursday evening spawned instead early Wednesday AM. Now they need to figure out a new time to attempt that mob. If you don't think having a specific time slot you know a mob will spawn in so that people can arrange to be present isn't a big deal for casual guilds, I suggest you join one for a few months and look at everyone's play time. Advanced notice is crucial to solid attendance for casual guilds. Sim repops can completely disrupt that. Also large variance screws it up even more.

Here are the facts:

1. C/R and C/R/FFA is the SAME number of Class R mob spawns every year given we stay at the current 2 sim repops per month (which has held true since its implementation)
2. Removal of FFA cycle would remove CotHing since Class C has self proclaimed eradicated it from your competition (though jury is still out on 4 AM VS...)
3. Class R will continue doing what it does with no poopsocking
4. Class C will continue what it does with their SoW foot races (removal of poopsocking VS and Trak is up to your guilds)
5. Full FFA on respawn will mean there are 12 targets outside of VP to go after.
6. During Full FFA respawns there are more targets available meaning the larger guilds cannot easily block everyone from getting a kill. (Like they can and do when there are only 4 targets to go after) This will lead to smaller guilds getting more time and chances to get FFA kills.
7. Solves the FFA poopsocking issues without adding further rules like 2 taggers or starting lines for the race etc. Since FFA competition becomes respawns exclusively.

Will this change all of a sudden see Moonlight Crusaders getting VS and Indignation getting Trak. No. It may not even see them getting Maestro. But it will give them the option and likely their best shot in an FFA scenario to go after Maestro or Draco or Talendor or Faydedar. If they wish that is.

If the FFA game is just not their cup of tea and they say no thanks to early morning batphones. NO PROBLEM. Your Class R mobs will spawn with the same frequency at a guaranteed time window that no sim repop will disrupt.

All of those facts are known to everyone on this server, whether you want to admit that or not.

What is suggested is the most simple and clean way to keep Class R spawns equivalent, so as to not interrupt the small guilds you so desperately champion for. While removing the clash of two different play styles that don't play nice together (no more CotHing, unless Class C wants to). It also would remove poopsocking unless Class C wishes to persist doing that in their spawns (Class R rotation never sock and you can't sock a respawn). It would include more people in respawns, since right now the limited number of FFA targets prevent most smaller R guilds from partaking.

It loses Class C spawns, Yep. You may have to work faster on a respawn to snake that next CT from BDA. But guess what, Class R is growing... And Class C is stagnating. A small shift in proportions isn't the end of the world, it's logical. Indignation, Omni and MC now occupy slots in rotations when they didn't before. They'll keep their amount of R spawns and have some shots at FFA spawns that they didn't before.

I mean you can keep saying it doesn't. But it does. I'm not responding to the 5 paragraphs of spin after. It costs Class C nothing. All it does is make the ability to kill FFA mobs for newer guilds harder.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Lazie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean you can keep saying it doesn't. But it does. I'm not responding to the 5 paragraphs of spin after. It costs Class C nothing. All it does is make the ability to kill FFA mobs for newer guilds harder.

Your post is all deflect and no fact.

I have facts, you just don't want to address them since they don't jive with what you want (the status quo).

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

New up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

So right now, without any changes to anything, up and coming guilds have 3 very clear options.

Your agenda is becoming painfully clear both here and in the raid forums. Taken is the root cause of things being the way they are on FFA spawns. They pushed it to what it is. The barrier for entry into competing on FFA for newer guilds is steeper than it has to be because of this. Yet you guys continuously try to deflect that and ask for a change to FFA that only benefits larger guilds. As I said before the changes need to be what makes the current system more approachable for all. Not a system that takes mobs off the Class R cycle and adds them to FFA repops.

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Changing things to R/C Repop=FFA, new up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

There is zero difference in terms of a new guild's ability to enter the raid scene.

What we have been discussing in THIS thread is getting rid of the necessity of socking spawns.

I presented the best options to do that. You keep pushing against it to keep mages in place to continue the socking. Surprise ?

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, a new up and coming guild who wants to enter the mix of the current FFA environment has to break down the invisible player made walls of :

1. mage face trackers ( plvl a guild owned account to share)
2. potential COH duck wars ( FU Taken)
3. poopsocking ( FU Taken)

New up and coming guilds who want to enter the mix of the proposed FFA scene would have to break down the invisible EQ made walls of:

1. Raid bosses spawn in various zones and in hostile environments, requires travel or teleportation and to proceed with caution and strategy
2. Alerting your guild members of the mobs presence, mostly via text message or email
3. Having proper resists and gear required to zerg down the raid boss

Thats the beauty of this proposed solution to socking.

There would be no more invisible player made walls, only the walls this game created for the players.

New up and coming guilds would be able to enter both the Raid scene ( choose R, Lord Bob style or C) and the new FFA scene with relative ease no matter their gear make up, roster size or availability.

What they can accomplish would be up to them, but there would be nothing limiting them in regards to what this proposal entails.

Again just reread this everyone. Taken is saying "Let's make all the spawns FFA on repops"(Which can happen at any time during the month and at any hour of the day) instead of removing the socking they added to the current FFA cycle. They are using rhetoric that it's because Class C is worried about losing mobs as the reason we don't support this.

It isn't true. We will roughly get the same amount of kills with no big losses. We want an FFA cycle that is more approachable to everyone with easy rules to follow that limits who can be in zone so that every guild is on the same footing. It's obvious what guild wants to keep the poopsock in place. It isn't Class C.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I remember when all the raids were done one week except an FFA talendor. He had something like 2 hours left in window. Was a bard race (from the OT ramp area) and everyone seemed to enjoy that. No real cheating in that, no autofire, and not nearly as much work as chain ducking a COTH. Just a straight jaunt to the mob. Still don't see why this couldn't work.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I remember when all the raids were done one week except an FFA talendor. He had something like 2 hours left in window. Was a bard race (from the OT ramp area) and everyone seemed to enjoy that. No real cheating in that, no autofire, and not nearly as much work as chain ducking a COTH. Just a straight jaunt to the mob. Still don't see why this couldn't work.

Mhm and if they got variance lowered to a +/- 4 hour window it would be more approachable for all guilds.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I remember when all the raids were done one week except an FFA talendor. He had something like 2 hours left in window. Was a bard race (from the OT ramp area) and everyone seemed to enjoy that. No real cheating in that, no autofire, and not nearly as much work as chain ducking a COTH. Just a straight jaunt to the mob. Still don't see why this couldn't work.

Remember FFA Inny when he was in the last 30 minutes of his window and that was a complete train clusterfuck? Even the one last week was a clusterfuck. So bad that TMO didn't try to attempt a second time after wiping.

Goes both ways, just depends on the mob.

As I stated earlier, I'm not opposed to something that gets rid of socking and CotHing.

Your foot race idea is all good and well. But your very own guild officer complains about how more rules is bad and reduces creativity. Is he opposed to it?

Would it work to reduce poopsocking, ideally, yes. But that's lots of new rules and starting places everyone has to agree to and abide by. Which can be harder to police. Could screenshot or FRAPs every "race start" to make sure you've got everyone present and accounted for I suppose.

Even still - VS and Trak, I dunno how you will foot race those. And those are the two biggest socks currently, which is the issue. You can't just create rules the avoid the two biggest problems.

Could do that, 2 taggers and 1 tracker (non-mage) in zone. Set up some starting lines... Agree to no gating or evaccing. I'd say any Runspeed (lawyerquesting about someone trying to spirit of scale and skirt the rules or something dumb like that can just be avoided). Then figure out how to handle VS / Trak.

Write it up and post it up. If it's streamlined, logical, and is going to remove poopsocks and reduce stupid day long variances. I will likely be behind it. I'm sure plenty of Class R guilds would be too.

C/R with full FFA respawns however solves that with no new rules, separates C and R during respawn windows since that seems to cause bad blood, fosters more legit competition/race in form of a respawn (race is actually mobilizing people and not just who can target and has the best jav click), keeps Class R guilds getting their same number of spawns since that's a high concern for everyone here it appears.

I was most in favor of no respawns and just repops so that tracking and poopsocking were both removed in a single swoop... No one has fun hitting track or staring for a 16 hour window. Getting an earthquake and going off to the races however is fun.