Stop the Socking

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Lazie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So I did a bit of research Chest. These are just mobs from 8/31 to now in your's and Taken's guild threads.

interesting.

so the R guilds that are doing so well in the current FFA arena are proposing to get rid of the current FFA arena, and instead go to full FFA on simulated repops only. who did you say we were trying to benefit again? Because that doesn't look like it would only be for our benefits alone.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

interesting.

so the R guilds that are doing so well in the current FFA arena are proposing to get rid of the current FFA arena, and instead go to full FFA on simulated repops only. who did you say we were trying to benefit again? Because that doesn't look like it would only be for our benefits alone.

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[Lazie]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

interesting.

so the R guilds that are doing so well in the current FFA arena are proposing to get rid of the current FFA arena, and instead go to full FFA on simulated repops only. who did you say we were trying to benefit again? Because that doesn't look like it would only be for our benefits alone.

Yourselves. Because you want more access to certain mobs. Erati said it best when he explained his stance about going for more VS's on repops. I think it's crystal clear the guilds at the top of Class R want the change because they know it benefits them. Even though it proverbially takes the food out of smaller guilds mouths. I'm glad he opened up so well in this thread when he was explaining his stance. I'm glad Chest backed up my numbers that shows it takes mobs directly from your rotation and adds it to the pockets of the larger guilds on repops. Everyone sees a little clearer now I think.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Lazie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yourselves. Because you want more access to certain mobs. Erati said it best when he explained his stance about going for more VS's on repops. I think it's crystal clear the guilds at the top of Class R want the change because they know it benefits them. Even though it proverbially takes the food out of smaller guilds mouths. I'm glad he opened up so well in this thread when he was explaining his stance. I'm glad Chest backed up my numbers that shows it takes mobs directly from your rotation and adds it to the pockets of the larger guilds on repops. Everyone sees a little clearer now I think.

Class R mobs occur every 3 weeks. Or 17-18 spawns a year are Class R. With 2 repops a month, or 24 respawns a year, a third of Those respawns are Class R, so 8. Expect 25-26 Class R spawns a year per mob with 7 day respawn.

Class R mobs occur every 2 weeks. (Assuming C/R rotation). Or 26 spawns a year.

The Class R spawn number stays the same. Except with full FFA respawn, sure, Taken, BDA and Divinity may get 3 big targets. But other Class R guilds still can get big targets or the mid tier ones.

On a respawn, those bigger Class R guilds would target fire down CT/Inny/VS/Trak. Likely only getting 3/4. If two guilds have the same goal (say both go for VS), they will run into each other, one will win and the other will have to regroup and move elsewhere quickly. Which may mean 2 big targets are up for grabs to the medium sized Class R guilds.

In this time there's still going to be atleast 1 big target left up, plus the mid-tier ones like Sev (dem lightsabers)/Naggy/Vox/Gore/Tal. All of which Class R guilds have a decent shot at getting in the 5-10 min Class C is herpderp training and bladestoppering to get your Phara Dar. If you see VS is down you may stay in VP to get Druushk or Nexona. Giving the less hardcore Class R guilds more time to get a clean Sev/Naggy/etc.

The present system this is what happens a respawn:

4 mobs go to Class R, 4 mobs go to FFA, 4 mobs go to Class C.

The Class R mobs get cleared to and killed cleanly.
The FFA mobs generally speaking go to BDA, Taken and Divinity. If they don't all it's usually like an FFA Maestro or Draco that gets left for the smaller Class R guilds. I think the last FFA Trak went to whoever had Class R Trak on rotation since they were still set up for it with CotHing and such (correct me if I'm wrong)
The Class C vending machine mobs sit up while you train each other in VP. When you're done you decide which ones if any are worth competing for given you haven't bagged out yet.

But let's call a spade a spade. Everyone has their own self interest.

Class C hates these suggestions because it will likely lose them loot, they no longer have 3-4 guaranteed mobs waiting for them outside of VP when they finish.
Big Class R guilds like these suggestions because it means that every repop there are several valueable targets to race for, as opposed to the *maybe* 1 with the current situation.
Small Class R guilds like these suggestions because it means there is likely 1-2 high value targets and lots of medium value targets available for them to race for. Their vending machine kills stays the status quo as I showed above.

The way I think it could be sold to Class C is that Respawns don't have bag limits. So that even though you may be going from 2/3 weeks to 1/2 weeks having a mob, you now have the potential to get a huge kill list on a respawn, plus you never have to CotH duck again since the FFA competition will be respawns and your Class C competition already works so harmoniously.

If we (as the bigger Class R guilds) were entirely focused on pixel intake we would be in Class C or we could trash the rotation and take every third spawn in Class R. But we don't. We stay in Class R and Rotation because that's what we prefer.

[Visual]

butterflies

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Class R mobs occur every 3 weeks. Or 17-18 spawns a year are Class R. With 2 repops a month, or 24 respawns a year, a third of Those respawns are Class R, so 8. Expect 25-26 Class R spawns a year per mob with 7 day respawn.

Class R mobs occur every 2 weeks. (Assuming C/R rotation). Or 26 spawns a year.

The Class R spawn number stays the same. Except with full FFA respawn, sure, Taken, BDA and Divinity may get 3 big targets. But other Class R guilds still can get big targets or the mid tier ones.

On a respawn, those bigger Class R guilds would target fire down CT/Inny/VS/Trak. Likely only getting 3/4. If two guilds have the same goal (say both go for VS), they will run into each other, one will win and the other will have to regroup and move elsewhere quickly. Which may mean 2 big targets are up for grabs to the medium sized Class R guilds.

In this time there's still going to be atleast 1 big target left up, plus the mid-tier ones like Sev (dem lightsabers)/Naggy/Vox/Gore/Tal. All of which Class R guilds have a decent shot at getting in the 5-10 min Class C is herpderp training and bladestoppering to get your Phara Dar. If you see VS is down you may stay in VP to get Druushk or Nexona. Giving the less hardcore Class R guilds more time to get a clean Sev/Naggy/etc.

The present system this is what happens a respawn:

4 mobs go to Class R, 4 mobs go to FFA, 4 mobs go to Class C.

The Class R mobs get cleared to and killed cleanly.
The FFA mobs generally speaking go to BDA, Taken and Divinity. If they don't all it's usually like an FFA Maestro or Draco that gets left for the smaller Class R guilds. I think the last FFA Trak went to whoever had Class R Trak on rotation since they were still set up for it with CotHing and such (correct me if I'm wrong)
The Class C vending machine mobs sit up while you train each other in VP. When you're done you decide which ones if any are worth competing for given you haven't bagged out yet.

But let's call a spade a spade. Everyone has their own self interest.

Class C hates these suggestions because it will likely lose them loot, they no longer have 3-4 guaranteed mobs waiting for them outside of VP when they finish.
Big Class R guilds like these suggestions because it means that every repop there are several valueable targets to race for, as opposed to the *maybe* 1 with the current situation.
Small Class R guilds like these suggestions because it means there is likely 1-2 high value targets and lots of medium value targets available for them to race for. Their vending machine kills stays the status quo as I showed above.

The way I think it could be sold to Class C is that Respawns don't have bag limits. So that even though you may be going from 2/3 weeks to 1/2 weeks having a mob, you now have the potential to get a huge kill list on a respawn, plus you never have to CotH duck again since the FFA competition will be respawns and your Class C competition already works so harmoniously.

If we (as the bigger Class R guilds) were entirely focused on pixel intake we would be in Class C or we could trash the rotation and take every third spawn in Class R. But we don't. We stay in Class R and Rotation because that's what we prefer.

I appreciate your perspective and somewhat false rhetoric to push your agenda. However again changing it to C/R then FFA on repops does nothing but lose mobs over time for Class R when you include the Class R mobs on repops. The change you guys are asking for does nothing to help up and coming guilds enter the raid scene. You are actually taking mobs away from the Class specified for them to wet their feet in raiding.

The changes needed to promote this and this alone are not what you guys are promoting. You are promoting a system that largely benefits large guilds. If I was worried about my loot I would say keep things the way they were. I have already given you the best thing to push for.

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Lazie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I appreciate your perspective and somewhat false rhetoric to push your agenda. However again changing it to C/R then FFA on repops does nothing but lose mobs over time for Class R when you include the Class R mobs on repops. The change you guys are asking for does nothing to help up and coming guilds enter the raid scene. You are actually taking mobs away from the Class specified for them to wet their feet in raiding.

New up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

So right now, without any changes to anything, up and coming guilds have 3 very clear options.

Changing things to R/C Repop=FFA, new up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

There is zero difference in terms of a new guild's ability to enter the raid scene.

What we have been discussing in THIS thread is getting rid of the necessity of socking spawns.

Yes, a new up and coming guild who wants to enter the mix of the current FFA environment has to break down the invisible player made walls of :

1. mage face trackers ( plvl a guild owned account to share)
2. potential COH duck wars ( FU Taken)
3. poopsocking ( FU Taken)

New up and coming guilds who want to enter the mix of the proposed FFA scene would have to break down the invisible EQ made walls of:

1. Raid bosses spawn in various zones and in hostile environments, requires travel or teleportation and to proceed with caution and strategy
2. Alerting your guild members of the mobs presence, mostly via text message or email
3. Having proper resists and gear required to zerg down the raid boss

Thats the beauty of this proposed solution to socking.

There would be no more invisible player made walls, only the walls this game created for the players.

New up and coming guilds would be able to enter both the Raid scene ( choose R, Lord Bob style or C) and the new FFA scene with relative ease no matter their gear make up, roster size or availability.

What they can accomplish would be up to them, but there would be nothing limiting them in regards to what this proposal entails.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

New up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

So right now, without any changes to anything, up and coming guilds have 3 very clear options.

Your agenda is becoming painfully clear both here and in the raid forums. Taken is the root cause of things being the way they are on FFA spawns. They pushed it to what it is. The barrier for entry into competing on FFA for newer guilds is steeper than it has to be because of this. Yet you guys continuously try to deflect that and ask for a change to FFA that only benefits larger guilds. As I said before the changes need to be what makes the current system more approachable for all. Not a system that takes mobs off the Class R cycle and adds them to FFA repops.

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Changing things to R/C Repop=FFA, new up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

There is zero difference in terms of a new guild's ability to enter the raid scene.

What we have been discussing in THIS thread is getting rid of the necessity of socking spawns.

I presented the best options to do that. You keep pushing against it to keep mages in place to continue the socking. Surprise ?

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, a new up and coming guild who wants to enter the mix of the current FFA environment has to break down the invisible player made walls of :

1. mage face trackers ( plvl a guild owned account to share)
2. potential COH duck wars ( FU Taken)
3. poopsocking ( FU Taken)

New up and coming guilds who want to enter the mix of the proposed FFA scene would have to break down the invisible EQ made walls of:

1. Raid bosses spawn in various zones and in hostile environments, requires travel or teleportation and to proceed with caution and strategy
2. Alerting your guild members of the mobs presence, mostly via text message or email
3. Having proper resists and gear required to zerg down the raid boss

Thats the beauty of this proposed solution to socking.

There would be no more invisible player made walls, only the walls this game created for the players.

New up and coming guilds would be able to enter both the Raid scene ( choose R, Lord Bob style or C) and the new FFA scene with relative ease no matter their gear make up, roster size or availability.

What they can accomplish would be up to them, but there would be nothing limiting them in regards to what this proposal entails.

Again just reread this everyone. Taken is saying "Let's make all the spawns FFA on repops"(Which can happen at any time during the month and at any hour of the day) instead of removing the socking they added to the current FFA cycle. They are using rhetoric that it's because Class C is worried about losing mobs as the reason we don't support this.

It isn't true. We will roughly get the same amount of kills with no big losses. We want an FFA cycle that is more approachable to everyone with easy rules to follow that limits who can be in zone so that every guild is on the same footing. It's obvious what guild wants to keep the poopsock in place. It isn't Class C.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by labmonkey42 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm just going to stop you right here. Nothing you ever say on this forum ever again can be taken seriously as of this moment.

The barrier exists because of people like you having an overt policy of intentionally blocking (by way of *repeatedly BREAKING rules*) other guilds from beating you to a target you want.

False. Ask the GM's how many times they have had to investigate anything I have done. I go out of my way to not break a rule. It has cost me FTE a couple times because I don't push the rules. I am one of the first people to always say stop on mobs where something we as a guild may have done something questionable.

I am one of the first people to always shutdown yelling about something another guild "May" have done wrong. Ask my guildies. Ask former guildies of mine in other guilds. I don't promote petitionquest and I go out of my way to take myself out of an encounter if it's even remotely questionable I did something wrong. I have presented anything that might be questionable to GMs before I put them into practice. Derubel can confirm this.

Originally Posted by labmonkey42 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You call our people cheaters when your people *break the rules on purpose*.

You try to muscle in and tweak the rules to allow your mage army to give you a tactical edge on the Trak engage race and then you cry when we incorporate your coth tactic for Sev and win the very next day.

False. Find anywhere in this thread or previously where I try to tweak rules for an advantage. The only thing I want to see at this point of Kunark is a more open raid scene with Velious so close. Let everyone race in fun with lower windows without having to stare at screens so long.

Originally Posted by labmonkey42 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Taunting, "lol compete harder" on the forums and then crying, "GM, GM! Taken isn't playing fair!" when we succeed is a double standard, and is precisely why many people hate you.

Anddd...False.

I didn't whine in this thread. I made points for a change that would make things more enjoyable for folks. I did point to things in the FFA cycle that have occurred, but I never said it ruined anything and I didn't whine. It made everyone work more yes and that was fine with me. I just think it can be more fun with the changes I presented.

Originally Posted by labmonkey42 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As for the rest of you... All of this forum whining is ridiculous. Grow up.

Remove variance. Set classic spawn timers. Ban anyone who breaks a rule permanently (not this stupid 2 week raid suspension crap).

Whining while saying other people are whining. Please just stop.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Lazie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I appreciate your perspective and somewhat false rhetoric to push your agenda. However again changing it to C/R then FFA on repops does nothing but lose mobs over time for Class R when you include the Class R mobs on repops. The change you guys are asking for does nothing to help up and coming guilds enter the raid scene. You are actually taking mobs away from the Class specified for them to wet their feet in raiding.

The changes needed to promote this and this alone are not what you guys are promoting. You are promoting a system that largely benefits large guilds. If I was worried about my loot I would say keep things the way they were. I have already given you the best thing to push for.

Except with the simple math I showed you, it doesn't take anything from Class R guilds. Quite to the contrary.

Their Class R target count would stay identical to what it is now. The only way this is false, is if we suddenly get an up-tick in the amount of sim repops we get, increasing beyond 2-3 a month. Nothing indicates the amount of sim repops is increasing.

The reason it is actually gaining mobs for Class R guilds is on a repop the 4~ FFA targets won't immediately be gobbled up by TMO, IB, BDA, Taken and Dicinity. With every non-VP spawn being FFA every Class R guild capable of a solo kill can likely get an FFA kill before they are all dead. Those who are very small and new, like MC or Indignation, can team up to get an FFA kill. Something that isn't possible or likely with the current System.

I'm not speaking in false rhetoric. Just cold hard numbers. Numbers which anyone who plays on this server can see and understand.

No where did I state it allows new, up in coming guilds to enter the raid scene... But it does. That entry point is Class R. With a Class R mob every other week, as opposed to every 3rd week, they have a more fixed time period to try a Class R mob and enter the scene.

Also these are static times, the 22nd of the month for example, and you know for sure it will be that day (especially if variance is reduced). This allows those smaller guilds who likely don't have all-day/week raid forces, to alert their guilds and set aside a time to be present for the raid mob. With the current system a single sim repop can screw that up for them. (Although somewhat unlikely) The Dracoliche they wanted to try on a Thursday evening spawned instead early Wednesday AM. Now they need to figure out a new time to attempt that mob. If you don't think having a specific time slot you know a mob will spawn in so that people can arrange to be present isn't a big deal for casual guilds, I suggest you join one for a few months and look at everyone's play time. Advanced notice is crucial to solid attendance for casual guilds. Sim repops can completely disrupt that. Also large variance screws it up even more.

Here are the facts:

1. C/R and C/R/FFA is the SAME number of Class R mob spawns every year given we stay at the current 2 sim repops per month (which has held true since its implementation)
2. Removal of FFA cycle would remove CotHing since Class C has self proclaimed eradicated it from your competition (though jury is still out on 4 AM VS...)
3. Class R will continue doing what it does with no poopsocking
4. Class C will continue what it does with their SoW foot races (removal of poopsocking VS and Trak is up to your guilds)
5. Full FFA on respawn will mean there are 12 targets outside of VP to go after.
6. During Full FFA respawns there are more targets available meaning the larger guilds cannot easily block everyone from getting a kill. (Like they can and do when there are only 4 targets to go after) This will lead to smaller guilds getting more time and chances to get FFA kills.
7. Solves the FFA poopsocking issues without adding further rules like 2 taggers or starting lines for the race etc. Since FFA competition becomes respawns exclusively.

Will this change all of a sudden see Moonlight Crusaders getting VS and Indignation getting Trak. No. It may not even see them getting Maestro. But it will give them the option and likely their best shot in an FFA scenario to go after Maestro or Draco or Talendor or Faydedar. If they wish that is.

If the FFA game is just not their cup of tea and they say no thanks to early morning batphones. NO PROBLEM. Your Class R mobs will spawn with the same frequency at a guaranteed time window that no sim repop will disrupt.

All of those facts are known to everyone on this server, whether you want to admit that or not.

What is suggested is the most simple and clean way to keep Class R spawns equivalent, so as to not interrupt the small guilds you so desperately champion for. While removing the clash of two different play styles that don't play nice together (no more CotHing, unless Class C wants to). It also would remove poopsocking unless Class C wishes to persist doing that in their spawns (Class R rotation never sock and you can't sock a respawn). It would include more people in respawns, since right now the limited number of FFA targets prevent most smaller R guilds from partaking.

It loses Class C spawns, Yep. You may have to work faster on a respawn to snake that next CT from BDA. But guess what, Class R is growing... And Class C is stagnating. A small shift in proportions isn't the end of the world, it's logical. Indignation, Omni and MC now occupy slots in rotations when they didn't before. They'll keep their amount of R spawns and have some shots at FFA spawns that they didn't before.