Real Question here

[Derubael]

I'd actually like to keep this out of RnF, if possible, because then any chance for constructive discourse goes out the window.

If you guys want things to change, post in raid discussion with your various ideas and suggestions. If it's clear there's enough support for the removal or modification of rules, they'll get changed. Right now there is no desire to change/review any of the rules because it's felt that everyone is happy with the current rule-set. If that's not the case, express it with forum threads.

I think we have a number of rules that are needlessly complicated and overwhelmingly complex, especially for guilds new to the raid scene. There has been more than one guild that's had a difficult time grasping how everything works when trying to enter the raid scene in recent months, and that's not good. But we've talked about it before in the past, and until you guys show us you don't like the way things are, nothing is going to even get looked at.

(As a side note, in regards to how mobility actually takes place, as of right now if you are a Class R guild that wants to move to Class C, all you have to do is kill a Class C spawn. I believe we decided that downing a VP dragon would also result in a transition to Class C. As far as the reverse goes - Class C to Class R - we don't want to discourage guilds from trying to move to Class C because they're afraid of doing poorly and getting stuck, so moving back to Class R won't be restrictively difficult. A request to the staff is likely all that would be needed. I will say that anyone who moves up to Class C should expect to stay there for at least a couple weeks to a month, regardless of performance. We'd want any guild that moves to Class C to give it their best effort before being asked to be placed back in Class-R if they are unable to kill anything.)

tl;dr Express interest in change, and it will get looked at. If you're like me and you feel we have too many rules with too many nuances and special exceptions that end up scaring off the little guilds they were designed to protect, get together with your guild's raid reps and talk to them about what you'd like to see changed. Have them post that in the raid forum to show the staff you'd like changes to the current rules. Good luck!

[arsenalpow]

Not to throw you under the bus but when I had a 1 on 1 with Sirken shortly after Genocidal Tendencies went full retard it was very clear to both of us and we agreed that the FFA cycle has been a complete failure from it's intended purpose. That was months ago. It's relatively disingenuous to say now months later "oh, we thought everyone was happy with things" when if you read these boards daily you'll see a completely different picture.

The rules aren't overly complicated. The only guild that couldn't figure it out imploded immediately because their leadership was some of the dumbest people to grace this server. The area that is most contentious is the FFA mobs that go late in window when no other potential spawns are available. That creates a bottleneck where all the stupid neckbeard shit happens. I'd expect if you removed the FFA cycle class C would QQ because they're so used to running those sets of mobs though.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you're like me and you feel we have too many rules with too many nuances and special exceptions that end up scaring off the little guilds they were designed to protect

Also that part is just absurd. The entry point for this entire thing is Class R and that's been a model system. Only two guilds have utterly failed in class R (Dolj and GT) and it was only because they didn't want to honor the rotation system that 10 other guilds put in place and have maintained for months without issue.

MC is currently growing as has been welcomed to the rotation and as they grow they'll continue to be added to new rotation lists as they feel they're ready. Harmony was on the lists until they fell apart, Omni was welcomed and are thriving, even Supremacy and KWSN were approached but never mustered the force to kill raid targets.

Class C is the problem. They've always been the problem. Working with TMO and IB is like pulling fucking teeth. Anytime class C is involved in anything the entire situation usually turns to shit. I get it, they want pixels and they'll do anything to get them, that's their playstyle, but that mentality is only favored by 10-15% of the server and unfortunately that minority is allowed to dictate raid progression for the other 10+ guilds.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also that part is just absurd.

I disagree. The staff has been making a legitimate effort to reduce the retardation involved in competing for mobs. The problem is we have a critical mass of people on this server who will do anything for pixels who keep finding creative ways to neckbeard. The staff forbids poopsocking, so the players sock at the zone in. The staff reduces the variance, so the players jav spam and autofire. The staff forbids jav spamming, so the players COH duck. It's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Derubael

until you guys show us you don't like the way things are

Chest is exaggerating: the R part of the new raid rules has been a huge success. When the R system was set up, there were six founding guilds: BDA, Taken, Divinity, Europa, Azure Guard, and The A-Team. Now we have 3 additional ones: Omni, Indignation, and Asgard, and apparently Moonlight Crusaders will join soon too. Even with Omni, in general these are not just the original R guilds splitting up either: I bet the number of people participating in the endgame on this server has gone up 50% at least over the past 8 months. Two years ago in the summer Save and I used to have Old Sebilis to ourselves! I mean literally we would be the only ones in the zone.

Where you guys have failed is in fixing the raid rules to the point that neckbearding is a minimal advantage. And quite frankly I don't blame you; I don't think any of us saw CoH ducking in the cards when things were being hammered out last winter. And suppose we ban CoH mages (Sirken even tried!) Well then it will be all about who buys a Raid0 of 12 SSDs and moves to NYC to log in 2s before the other guy. What you guys need to do is sit down and realize you are hammering at an impossible task: there just isn't enough content. If there wasn't variance and asinine competition, it wouldn't be possible to "raid" for more than about 4-5 hours a week. And our neckbeards would be forced to get tans.

This is why Chest's hybrid proposal is so reasonable: we have an R rotation so everyone can see the content, some sort of especially asinine C rules so that the neckbeards can stay in their basements, and FFA repops for real competition, admittedly over in the blink of an eye. The obvious way of doing things here:

• Class C mobs have some huge variance; let IB and TMO decide what to do there, and they alternate with
• Class R mobs have 0 variance and GMs enforce the R rotation, and yes this should include VP and Velious
• Repops are straight FFA, and every 50+ toon is moved to the nearest city (if you are camped out somewhere, too bad).

Other than FTE shouts and basic 'thou shalt not train thy neighbor', no rules are required.

Also, if I had to guess, I'd say what frustrates Chest the most is that the R playstyle is considered some sort of redheaded stepchild compared to the one true neckbeard way. Like why is Veeshan's Peak Class C and not FFA? I mean the R guilds are straight up forbidden from even trying it. And then we have Velious, which is going to be straight FFA. Which is fine with me, really . . . for a few months. I don't mind waiting while people go straight up nuts for a bit. But after that we should extend the R system IMO.

Oh, and one last thing. You will NEVER get a consensus from Class C and Class R on anything. Class C is not about competition, they are about maximizing their pixels. Which is fine. Just understand that they will veto anything that reduces their net pixel count by 0.1%.

[Kayso]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just understand that they will veto anything that reduces their net pixel count by 0.1%.

[arsenalpow]

I at least have the health of the server and the enjoyment of the small guilds in mind, that's my frustration. If wanted to maximize my own pixels I'd join a class C guild or put BDA in class C. IB and TMO are so goddamn shortsighted when it comes to this. Locking down content indefinitely will eventually be the death of this server. Right now most people don't realize how the end game is currently setup and the difficult choices one must make to see content. What happens when that message is loud and clear? People will stop going on the journey if they full well know they'll likely never accomplish their goals.

The point of p99 is to experience raid content. Currently the biggest problem with experiencing this content is where class c and r overlap and the FrapsQuest shit that plays out (this also happens at every class C raid). Making new rules or changing to different rules doesn't fix the problem. The root issue has to be addressed.

[bigsykedaddy]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point of p99 is to experience raid content.

I don't think the point of p99 is to experience raid content. I believe p99's purpose was to relive a classic EQ experience. Waiting in line for free loot is so far from classic. I also understand that being stuck in Kunark for 4 years is also not classic. Even if the server was locked in Kunark, I don't think people showing up to a raid target, with 0 competition and getting free raid loot is classic whatsoever. It is almost like people have never played MMO's before. There are always people who are on the top and who get all the best loot. They get all the best loot because they put in the most effort. You're way of thinking is like hey that guy over there has a mansion and a mercedes, U.S. Government I don't work nearly as hard as him but can I please have a free house and car if I wait in line? It just boggles my mind.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by bigsykedaddy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're way of thinking is like hey that guy over there has a mansion and a mercedes, U.S. Government I don't work nearly as hard as him but can I please have a free house and car if I wait in line? It just boggles my mind.

Your analogy has changed my way of thinking. Submitting my app to TMO so that I can get in line for my VP rots forthwith.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by bigsykedaddy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think the point of p99 is to experience raid content. I believe p99's purpose was to relive a classic EQ experience. Waiting in line for free loot is so far from classic. I also understand that being stuck in Kunark for 4 years is also not classic. Even if the server was locked in Kunark, I don't think people showing up to a raid target, with 0 competition and getting free raid loot is classic whatsoever. It is almost like people have never played MMO's before. There are always people who are on the top and who get all the best loot. They get all the best loot because they put in the most effort. You're way of thinking is like hey that guy over there has a mansion and a mercedes, U.S. Government I don't work nearly as hard as him but can I please have a free house and car if I wait in line? It just boggles my mind.

I think you comparing personal wealth in real life, to the loot in a video game is an absurd concept.

Its a video game, its a toy, we should play it. Not invest your life into it ffs.

The reason the person you are talking about over there has a Mercedes and a mansion is because he doesn't think that spending 12-24hrs waiting for pixels is worth his time. And he is absolutely right, if you disagree you are addicted to EQ and need help.

p99 is about re-creating the classic eq, and it does that very well! But there are things like, personal knowledge that give everyone a massive advantage over classic eq, that will make it never ever be the same as eq was in 1999 - let alone a myriad of other reasons.

Yes - we play this game - there is no reason to compete, there is no reason to not just simply enjoy it and kill raid mobs.

There is nothing cool about someone saying, 'raid on Saturday between 9 am and 11pm! Be there - don't go anywhere, don't plan anything, don't see the outside world! neglect your life, in the name of killing the Maestro of Rancor!'

gimi a break, you should be able to down cazic thule and still have a family that doesn't think you are a neck beard looser primed and ready to spend the later years of his life alone.

p99 exists so we can play eq the way eq used to be. Without all the new shitty art, the crappy zones that suck, the instances, the epic 2.0's

key word though.. PLAY eq.

just play the game, dont treat it like its real life.

End FFA end Mob windows. Make eqp99 a game that isnt a stupid life suck.

If at any moment you find yourself trying to apply the rules of economics and capitalism vs socialism to this game, stop and remember.. its a game.

[Daldaen]

Class C / Class R alternation with full FFA repops is a good resolution to these problems.

It sounds like Class C guilds don't want to CotH duck and they won't have to if they agree with this. Unless they start doing that to each other...

I do tend to agree that making VP completely blocked from Class R is dumb. However making that a Class C / Class R split wouldn't be fair. It should be more of a Class C / C / C / R or C / C / R. So that maybe once a month or every 3 weeks it's a Class R rotation. Due to low numbers of keys it may end up being a conglomerate of guilds doing the VP dragons. It would be pretty neat if that week was an "All Class R guild members who are keyed may join".

Removing or reducing variance would be cool too.

But I don't see Class C agreeing to even every 4th VP spawn is Class R, cause then they lose pixels and losing the possibility of a crown may cause aneurysms. I'm sure there were a few strokes at losing 2 FFA VSes in the past month. I can't imagine them giving up precious PDs.