Necro or enchanter...Go!

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, no. Necromancers are clearly a DPS class. They do damage. I'm sorry you loved twitching, but that was not even a Necro spell at launch -- it was a cheap gimmick that was put in to negate nerfing Necromancer spells. Screaming Terror was nerfed at launch. It was originally a fear+mem wipe. That was considered way too powerful and it was turned into a 2 tick Mez. It was never a defining characteristic of the class. The heals are fine, they're not going to be useful in raids. Great in Groups and Duo'ing. Terrible for all else.

Enchanters do damage. Wizards do damage. Clerics do damage. That is not an acceptable criteria for what makes someone a DPS class. But, I get into this later in the post.

The heals are not useful in raids? If you're not using it, you're a bad Necromancer. If you're not using twitch, you're a bad Necromancer. If you're only using twitch, you're a bad Necromancer. If you're not using a pet, you're a bad Necromancer. Not only does it feed other necros to remove all negative side effects of Lich, but it can be incredibly useful for saving clerics needing to patch heal, preserving their mana for more important jobs.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No. Necromancers are fantastic damage in a sustained setting like a raid. The problem is that Verant intentionally made Necro spells not land on raid targets. There was a guild on Tarrew Marr called the Necro Death Squad and they killed raid bosses with Necros only. In came the nerf bats. Lifetap was coded to resist on guys like Cazic and Inny. You had the "have to stand directly under the mob" to get it to land gameplay feature added. It was a joke.

When was there a sustained setting in a raid until Velious? 32k mobs don't sustain DoT. They didn't until you get 1 million HP bosses in Velious, and it isn't until then (as I have said) that necro damage becomes a useful thing. The only other time is when soloing and you're the single producer of damage.

Yes, Lifetap was made to be resisted, there are other spells you can land on Cazic and Inny, that isn't bias towards MR. If you're so limited in your thinking that the only damage you can pump out is Lifetap, you're really missing the grand scope of what Necromancers do.

Necromancers were not in any way a reasonable sustained DPS class by any stretch of the imagination until Velious when bosses would survive long enough for DoTs to start ticking to fruition. Before this, it didn't happen because our DDs are not in any way efficient relative to other classes, because they merge utility with DD, rather than being pure DD as is the case for a DPS. I'll come back to this later.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From Classic to Velious most guilds carried one or two necromancers at the most. Forums like EQnecro were full of Necros either quitting their class or using them to twink out new characters because the end game was completely broken for Necromancers.

"Most"? Please, offer some valid evidence to this, otherwise you're just talking out of your ass. Lets see some proof of that claims, not anecdotal recounting of a time long past.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No one liked twitching, which was the only role for Necromancers on raids besides Corpse Cleanup following wipes.

Don't assume that because you didn't that "no one liked twitching", nor that other necromancers would only twitch. That's a logical fault.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here was the Necromancer experience on a raid and in most of Kunark-Velious: Sit far away from the AE (because you can't even lifetap yourself to heal and clerics aren't going to waste a CH on you), buff DMF, twitch.

That's a great class! So much fun! The genius of the Necromancer! You give about as much mana as a bard's song. That's not good gameplay, that's a fucking embarrassment of game design.

An Iksar Necro with Regrowth wont need to lifetap to return health, and a well trained group of necromancers will be able to heal themselves to never need to screw with Clerics. Manage your HP/Mana, twitch, heal, buff DMF, and manage a pet. Yup, that's a great class. Better than pressing a mindless rotation like it's fucking World of Warcraft.

A bard song, an enchanter's clarity, neither will provide a burst of mana, and each causes diminishing the value of each successive class. That burst is what Necromancers do. It isn't as efficient as the sustained, burst rarely is efficient, as the loss is what you get for having it at demand. Cannibalize, Manastone, Mana robes are not efficient, but they burst. Wizards are not efficient, but they burst. Necro DoTs become efficient in Velious, because they don't burst. Necro twitches are not efficient because they burst, but by bursting, they do what sustained like a bard and an enchanter cannot do.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You really love that rez, don't you? It's sad that it's the one thing you mention over and over again. Seriously, look at what other classes get in Kunark and you're obsessing over Shadowbond and tiny coffins.

You really love those dots, don't you? It's sad that it's the one thing you mention over and over again. Seriously, look at what other classes get in Kunark and you're obsessing over DoTs and DDs.

You see, that phrase doesn't work, because you're even more overwhelmingly zealous about the role of DPS as the singular activity that Necromancer was designed for, you who did not design the class. My argument is based on the facts of the spells and abilities that were in the game, not any subjective interpretation of your reality.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have no idea what you're talking about which is kind of sad because you have a pretty good user guide. I don't get how you know so much about Necromancers yet don't understand what they are about. Go look at the Necromancer spell list. What gets upgraded over and over. Dots, Lifetaps, Snares, Fears, Pets. These are all used in dealing damage and killing shit.

"Understand what they are about"... You mean understand what you see them as about, while ignoring the other half of the equation. My argument for support has never been, nor has in the previous responses, been that necromancers do not do DPS. A support class, I maintained, does DPS, but supports the group in numerous other ways. Much in the same way that Enchanters are a support class, but still charm to deal some significant DPS output, Necromancers are equally as Supporting. Necromancers are not, in any way, like a Rogue or a Wizard, where their abilities and behavior, when maximized in terms of efficiency, is the output of DPS. Instead, Necromancer is a class that is best played as supporting a group of players through the combination of moderate damage, moderate mana support, moderate healing, and some ninja tricks. That puts a Necromancer into the traditional category of a jack of all trades style support class, not maximized for any one behavior.

You say that because DoTs get upgraded over and over, it means that Necromancer is a DPS... And yet, twitch gets upgraded. Heals get upgraded. Cancel magics get upgraded. Roots, fears, snares get upgraded. Lich gets upgraded. So... Yeah. Your argument works against you. You'll want to start curving your argument into one of number of DoTs vs other abilities, although that one also fails.

Further, what is used in dealing damage and killing shit (Fears, snares, lifetaps) do not serve a singular purpose, so they do not equate DPS. They serve multiple purposes that intersect. A snare helps you to kill, but it does not kill. A snare is not a DPS ability. It is a utility, it is a support. Now, Darkness combines Snare with a DPS DoT, making it intersect two separate things. You can use Darkness only as a DoT, not as support, but you can use it equally as support instead of just as a DoT. This helps to distinguish the Necromancer. Similarly, lifetaps serves two purposes, to heal the necromancer to feed into the machine, and to deal offensive damage capability.

But by serving two functions, they act sub-optimally in each category. A Necro lifetap will not be as efficient as a heal would be, but it comes with a DPS component. Similarly, the DPS component is not as efficient as a wizard nuke would be, but it comes with a healing utility component that feeds into the mana generation. It is much like a Bard in D&D, proficient in many things, but master of none of them.

To say we are a DPS is to say the central focus of our abilities is for the goal of producing damage. And yet, most of our damaging abilities have a secondary function that makes then less efficient and useful than comparable other class abilities when looked at in a pure DPS light. But, if you are a smart person, you realizes that there is a careful balance and theme to most necromancer abilities. Unlike backstab, unlike rend and the like, the necromancer emanates utility and damage, but not optimizing either. In this way, a Necromancer does not fit the role of the DPS, they fit a support role, through their application of moderate DPS (and in Kunark, that is primarily through pet backstab/charm), moderate mana regeneration (through twitch), moderate heals (through necro healing, see Baalzy's post), moderate rezzing ability (relative to a cleric who can do it with no component), and moderate independence in their own health management. That's a support, that's a jack of all trades, that's a class that specializes in nothing, but touches upon most things.

Most classes have ways to kill shit, it doesn't make every class a DPS.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

WHOA WHOA WHOA. You accuse this guy of bias and then you list Demi-Lich, Snare, Fear, and harmshield as support abilities?

How can you possibly accuse me of trolling when you shovel horseshit like this?

Invite that Necro into the group, he has root, a spell literally every caster except mages have! If we're going to list that as support then let me talk to you about how great Wizards are at support. Don't use any of your nukes, Wizards, you're just HRURR obsessed with damage. Embrace your Utility! Cast root and evacuate.

First of all, saying someone is introducing a bias is NOT the same as saying that they are bias. Everyone can introduce a selection bias when they want to make a point, but it remains an empirical truth that the cases you select shape the results you find. It was in no way offensive to him, and you're blowing it way out of proportion by jumping to conclusions that were not called for by the language used.

You say that Snare and Fears are a CC, and that is a support ability. Demi-Lich fuels your mana machine, making it a utility that goes to be either support or DPS. Harmshield allows for you to survive and soak things that you otherwise would be unable to for your group, if you're smart.

I can accuse you of trolling because what you're saying is absurd and in denial of the strengths of the class that can be empirically demonstrated. I try to believe that more often than not, people have a decent head on their shoulders that can analyze a situation based on the evidence presented, and that is why I accuse you of trolling.

Sure, talk to me about how great Wizards are at support. Stack up Wizard DPS:Support abilities versus Necromancer DPS:Support abilities. Every class has utility, every class has some form of support, no matter how roundabout, but some classes are significantly more DPS, and more bias to it in their mechanics and their abilities. Necromancer is not one of those, there is a far more flat distribution of abilities than that. You think Wizards don't have support, or that it hurts my argument? Then you truly haven't understood a word I have written.

If you were the leader of a group that kicked a Necro who was maintaining their pet to deal modest DPS, twitching mana to the cleric and enchanter, and patch healing, in favor of someone who is going to spam DoTs that never get to tick to fruition, then you're a person I'd want nothing to do with in a group or a raid, as you do not have a mind for maximizing outputs.

Either way, I am done expending time and energy trying to explain what is obvious to anyone who has played a necro. I am more than confident anything written after this has a clear and thorough response in this or my previous posts. Nothing has been added to this conversation for weeks other than regurgitation of anecdotal nonsense. Feel free to have last word if you like, I'm done trying for your sake.