With all due respect, Sirken, you're no Solomon.

[arsenalpow]

This isn't about creating more "food" for everyone, it's about side each coming together on a plan. The issue is the hardcores believe they are entitled to more loot so they refused to budge.

[whitebandit]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't about creating more "food" for everyone, it's about side each coming together on a plan. The issue is the hardcores believe they are entitled to more loot so they refused to budge.

Could not it be said that the "The issue is the casuals believe they are entitled to more loot so they refused to budge." ?????

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by whitebandit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Could not it be said that the "The issue is the casuals believe they are entitled to more loot so they refused to budge." ?????

well considering the hardcores argument is that we refused to "compete" in first place is flawed, no, i wouldn't say the casuals are refusing to budge.

Had we come to the bargaining table with a full server rotation 100% of the time proposal and then dropped it down to 70% of the time, and then refused to acknowledge any other proposals then I could agree with your position. We came to the table with a less than 50% split and it would wholly rejected. The Rogean proposal came up with a 50/50 split (minus VP) and it is easily the most fair plan.

[goshozal]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The issue is the hardcores believe they are entitled to more loot

My guild is willing to race for Trakanon every time he pops, whenever he pops.

Your guild is not. You state that we believe we're entitled to more loot. You're the one asking for us to back off and leave the loot for you at your convenience.

I cannot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] enough.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by goshozal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My guild is willing to race for Trakanon every time he pops, whenever he pops.

Your guild is not. You state that we believe we're entitled to more loot. You're the one asking for us to back off and leave the loot for you at your convenience.

I cannot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] enough.

You are just that guy.. Don't be that guy, man.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by goshozal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My guild is willing to camp out 100 alts, leapfrog, FTE snipe, oops train for Trakanon every time he pops, whenever he pops.

Your guild is not. You state that we believe we're entitled to more loot. You're the one asking for us to back off and leave the loot for you at your convenience.

I cannot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] enough.

Fixed it

[goshozal]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fixed it

Sure. We're willing to camp out alts and FTE snipe, because those are within the rules the gm's set forth. We do not intentionally train, except what we used to do in VP. Which, again was also within the rules.

When we found out that players were duping we never questioned their accounts being banned, and though we groused about the accounts we shared being suspended we took it and dealt with the GM's on a per-account basis because TMO, by and large, plays within the rules set forth and is willing to work with the staff. We happen to be the best at pushing those rules to their absolute limit, but that's how you get the top dog spot in this dogfight.

Chest, you're being a baby. If I were in your guild I'd be railing at you to get out of the negotations or shut your mouth, because frankly you're embarrassing BDA. And you can cry and call me a cheater or a bully all you want, but the fact is you're holding up the negotiations by being a greedy little whiner with an enormous chip on his shoulder, and everybody sees it.

You wanna call me greedy? Fine. I'm greedy. But I've got news for you: we're all greedy. You wanna call me a competitive jerk? Fine. I freely admit that I enjoy being in the top guild and pushing as hard as possible to down the most raid mobs.

But entitled? Get fucking real.

[Babayaaga]

Originally Posted by goshozal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...We do not intentionally train, except what we used to do in VP. Which, again was also within the rules.

Originally Posted by goshozal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...accounts being banned, and though we groused about the accounts we shared being suspended we took it and dealt with the GM's on a per-account basis because TMO, by and large, plays within the rules...

Originally Posted by goshozal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...We happen to be the best at pushing those rules to their absolute limit...

The areas I have underlined expose the reasoning why some people are being extremely cautious in these negotiations. What may appear to be a "chip" is nothing more than this... caution. Chest is one of many players who have experienced first hand what can happen when rules have been exposed to the ingenuity of the human brain when driven by a common goal in an environment where resources are too few to meet demand.

While we may be negotiating a more fair way to "share" these resources, the reality is that the common problem will still remain... there just isn't enough content to meet demand. If historical evidence tells us anything, and as you have clarified in your post, it can be expected that people will look for ways to bend these new rulesets to their favour using exposed grey areas all over again.

By your own post, you have exposed how this happens, the "why" is where guild philosophies disagree. What some consider acceptable behaviour, others do not.

Through these negotiations, it is the responsibility of everyone to ensure that grey areas are identified and clarified before anything is set in stone.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by goshozal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Chest, you're being a baby. If I were in your guild I'd be railing at you to get out of the negotations or shut your mouth, because frankly you're embarrassing BDA. And you can cry and call me a cheater or a bully all you want, but the fact is you're holding up the negotiations by being a greedy little whiner with an enormous chip on his shoulder, and everybody sees it.

You wanna call me greedy? Fine. I'm greedy. But I've got news for you: we're all greedy. You wanna call me a competitive jerk? Fine. I freely admit that I enjoy being in the top guild and pushing as hard as possible to down the most raid mobs.

But entitled? Get fucking real.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also BDA has the most people online for any guild across the entire server 24/7. That isn't Tier 2 I'm sorry.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Clark [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also BDA has the most people online for any guild across the entire server 24/7. That isn't Tier 2 I'm sorry.

It has a lot of people online, because the vast majority of players are seeking a more casual experience from the game, but a lot of us want to be able to see some of the stuff that the upper tier guilds have been locking down.

Tier 1 in capacity? Probably. We've downed CT before, we've done some bigger bosses, as have a number of other "tier 2" guilds. But the vast majority of us don't like to play the game you all do. Tier 1 in terms of the attitude and the style of game we seek to play? Not even close. This isn't about anything other than that fact. Certainly, Tier 2 should have defenses so that no one guild can monopolize or even be complete douchebags in Tier 2. Numerous times I have seen the BDA representatives arguing for these things, things that are less beneficial to BDA in a purely competitive way, but far more beneficial to us in the style of play we seek. Yes, in a pure tiered raiding system, there is the threat that a guild with the capacity of BDA could dominate their tier, but that's thinking like a tier 1 guild. That's why Bregan reps have been perfectly fine with the idea of a percentage of casual kills, or wanting to go into VP as making you tier 1, so that way a guild (BDA or another in the future) can't do to tier 2 what we are arguing against.

You're looking for people to want to play in the shitshow of hardcore competitive raiding, but the vast majority don't like that. You can't pull people into it who don't want to be into that. If you can't make hardcore competition appealing enough to those involved to sustain hardcore competition, maybe the issue isn't in people are just too casual, maybe you're just too hardcore to compete for people playing a 14 year old elf simulator, many of whom are just sort of done with the stage in their lives in which they measure their epeen based on hardcore attitudes. You all can play tier 1 the way you all always have, and while I don't speak for BDA (as I am just a member), I can say that from my experiences with these people, that most people here do not want to play the game you all do. I certainly don't.

People really need to realize that not everyone thinks in terms of maximum material utility. Utilitarianism has been a corpse in political thought for at least half a century, if not more. Not everyone thinks of what they can do to take the most toys in the box. It isn't wrong to think that, nor is it wrong to not think that. But you can't expect the other to play by those rules, and for everything to work out right. Political science is against you if you think that that can work.

"I just don't see how any guild, GM or guide can dictate any guild to adapt to a play style they don't want to. Focus on that, figure how the two different sides can adapt it to this problem. Limiting NPCs to one tier or another and forced into the other side's play style is the second biggest issue." -Ambrotos