Sirken's proposal

[Rhambuk]

Originally Posted by Funkutron5000 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but can the people on the other side at least acknowledge the reverse without calling us all hideous no-life neckbeards?

Is this why the phrase casual scum popped up?

I hadn't seen in until I came back but im not surprised the hardcores are tired of being called "shit" all the time....

[Jorgam]

Would it be possible to draft a copy of the server and Xfer the top guilds, and anyone else that wanted to go with them, over to it? It would open the end game up to the lower guilds while giving the top tier players a place to compete as normal. Just an idea.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Jorgam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would it be possible to draft a copy of the server and Xfer the top guilds, and anyone else that wanted to go with them, over to it? It would open the end game up to the lower guilds while giving the top tier players a place to compete as normal. Just an idea.

I see this as being the most extreme extension of the Staff Proposal posted by Rogean. Instead of splitting server mobs (except VP), make a Casual Blue, and a Hardcore Blue. If you're on Casual Blue, you must adhere to the casual rules that the guilds put together in their friendly raiding setting, and if you're on the Hardcore Blue, you must adhere to the FFA, and never bring up the idea of more casual raiding. It must always be hardcore.

The only issue I see is that you'd want to transfer the hardcore or casual population to the other server, so how do you do that? If you just let free transfers, people will start gaming economies by shuttling money over to the other server, etc. If you lock it down, than a lot of people who have quit for a break will come back being unable to switch server to the one they want their main toon on. Lastly, if you do it by a request-by-request basis, it bogs down the server staff who do everything they do for free, thank you all very much for that.

Nevertheless, it seems like the ultimate extension of the Staff Proposal. But if we are stuck on one server (given the bag of worms of other issues that open by creating two servers), it seems to be the most fair, most just, and the most likely to work.

[Jorgam]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see this as being the most extreme extension of the Staff Proposal posted by Rogean. Instead of splitting server mobs (except VP), make a Casual Blue, and a Hardcore Blue. If you're on Casual Blue, you must adhere to the casual rules that the guilds put together in their friendly raiding setting, and if you're on the Hardcore Blue, you must adhere to the FFA, and never bring up the idea of more casual raiding. It must always be hardcore.

The only issue I see is that you'd want to transfer the hardcore or casual population to the other server, so how do you do that? If you just let free transfers, people will start gaming economies by shuttling money over to the other server, etc. If you lock it down, than a lot of people who have quit for a break will come back being unable to switch server to the one they want their main toon on. Lastly, if you do it by a request-by-request basis, it bogs down the server staff who do everything they do for free, thank you all very much for that.

Nevertheless, it seems like the ultimate extension of the Staff Proposal. But if we are stuck on one server (given the bag of worms of other issues that open by creating two servers), it seems to be the most fair, most just, and the most likely to work.

You have valid points. There would be challenges in regards to who/when and with what they could take. And I also appreciate all that the staff does for free/love of the game! =)

[Obrae]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

[Jorgam]

Originally Posted by Obrae [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

You are correct about socialism. And as anyone with eyes can see, it always fails or limps along until it implodes. There is a solution, that doesn't equal giving a man a fish. What that is, perhaps we won't know until more dialogue is had.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Obrae [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

Originally Posted by Jorgam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are correct about socialism. And as anyone with eyes can see, it always fails or limps along until it implodes. There is a solution, that doesn't equal giving a man a fish. What that is, perhaps we won't know until more dialogue is had.

Uhh, no. That's not socialism. Forgive me readers, I must digress into elucidating a term that is too heavily skewed by years of propaganda, please skip down if you want no part of this, as it is totally off topic, just as bringing up socialism here. Socialism is a system in which the product of the work of society is distributed to the producers of the product. So, a socialist system is a factory that creates a product, and the workers within that factory decide how it is distributed amongst themselves. It does not have to be even, it does not have to be fair. But the producers must be in control of the product, so that the benefit of the product goes to those that produce and create. Socialism is not giving a man a fish, it is saying that you can get all the fishermen together, and as a group, they decide how to dish out, how to sell, and how to market their fish as a company, without having managers who do not produce the product themselves.

Given that the product in this case is raid mobs, and we don't create raid mobs, this is not even close to socialism. We, the players, don't produce anything. We consume generated pixels for enjoyment.

Further, socialist systems do not historically implode, autocratic regimes historically tend to implode. Remember, your eyes are only good for so much, just as eyes once told us that the earth is flat, but science and empirical observation of the facts in more detailed analysis has shown us that is wrong. Similarly, very little is out there to say that socialist systems collapse on their face, but that's getting into political science with no relevance here.

Back on topic!

It is not about doing no work for it. I'll work damn hard for it, and I work damn hard to be a good person and help out as many of my fellow Necromancers as I can. I work hard at any game that I play, I just don't want an atmosphere of hardcore raiding that is toxic to my mental health. You all can have that, as that is what you want. Rogean's plan provides for it. If you want schadenfreude, then I think the issue is truly indivisible, and it will only continue more conflict. Please see my earlier posts for an elaboration on this point.

[Jorgam]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Uhh, no. That's not socialism. Forgive me readers, I must digress into elucidating a term that is too heavily skewed by years of propaganda. Socialism is a system in which the product of the work of society is distributed to the producers of the product. So, a socialist system is a factory that creates a product, and the workers within that factory decide how it is distributed amongst themselves. It does not have to be even, it does not have to be fair. But the producers must be in control of the product, so that the benefit of the product goes to those that produce and create. Socialism is not giving a man a fish, it is saying that you can get all the fishermen together, and as a group, they decide how to dish out, how to sell, and how to market their fish as a company, without having managers who do not produce the product themselves.

Given that the product in this case is raid mobs, and we don't create raid mobs, this is not even close to socialism. We, the players, don't produce anything. We consume generated pixels for enjoyment.

Further, socialist systems do not historically implode, autocratic regimes historically tend to implode. Remember, your eyes are only good for so much, just as eyes once told us that the earth is flat, but science and empirical observation of the facts in more detailed analysis has shown us that is wrong. Similarly, very little is out there to say that socialist systems collapse on their face, but that's getting into political science with no relevance here.

Lastly, it is not about doing no work for it. I'll work damn hard for it, and I work damn hard to be a good person and help out as many of my fellow Necromancers as I can. I work hard at any game that I play, I just don't want an atmosphere of hardcore raiding that is toxic to my mental health. You all can have that, if you want. Rogean's plan provides for it. If you want schadenfreude, then I think the issue is truly indivisible.

Thanks for the information. I think, however, that you are discussing the idealized form of socialism and not the realities of the political model when employed by humans. On paper it sounds great, in practice, not so much. Schadenfreude is good term. That isn't what I want, as I am willing to earn my keep! However, much of the top end game comes off as malicious to those who aren't a part of the top end guilds. In particular I think the epic situation is beyond ridiculous. Having to buy some epics, due to top guilds possessing the spawns non-stop, is wrong.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Jorgam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for the information. I think, however, that you are discussing the idealized form of socialism and not the realities of the political model when employed by humans. On paper it sounds great, in practice, not so much.

Schadenfreude is good term. That isn't what I want, as I am willing to earn my keep! However, much of the top end game comes off as malicious to those who aren't a part of the top end guilds. In particular I think the epic situation is beyond ridiculous. Having to buy some epics, due to top guilds possessing the spawns non-stop, is wrong.

But that's the mistake I am pointing you too. Every big socialism we have seen has also been an autocracy. It is not because autocracies and socialisms go together, it is because when the Soviet Union became a world power in opposition to the United States in a struggle for hegemony following World War II, each had to ideologically polarize from one another, and seed their ideological views into their blocks of states. So you have the United States using the Marshall Plan to instill capitalist democratic systems into western Europe. The USSR did similar, but did it for autocratic socialism. However, the United States still liked autocratic regimes, as they made for an easy way to control other states, such as what the United States did through much of the 50s and 60s in South American. For that reason, we ideologically polarized ourselves from Socialism as a concept, rather than from Autocracy. You cannot dissect the two of these from one another on grand scales, because of this fact.

In a similar way, you can't really segregate capitalism from democracy in many cases due to this same fact, except when looking in more recent years at anocracies and the growth of new states and new political systems in the post-Soviet era. Socialism is a common practice in many parts of the United States, but it is not called that. There are numerous places around the world that run more socialist systems, independent of autocratic regimes, but they are all small. No large socialist state has ever arisen due to the ideological polarization of the Cold War and the seeding done by the victor, the United States. Instead, you have to look at small scale versions of socialism if you're going to have a hope of understanding how it works as a system. So, if you want to say Socialism falls flat on its face, it isn't that simple, because it's confounded by even more powerful evidence that Autocracies fall on their faces, and your variables are confused.

But this is all beside the point... What is being suggested on this server by the casual raiders is not Socialism. It doesn't come in any way close to fitting what Socialism is by definition.

For anyone passing through and curious on what this all actually is in a more elaborate way than my ramblings, check out the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Whccunka4.

As for schadenfreude, as it stands with Rogean's proposal, there'd be around 2-3 mobs a day (14-21 a week for 3 guilds to fight over) for the Hardcore tier to go for, and 1 mob for each casual guild (assuming a rotation) each week. This is more than enough, really. It isn't asking for hand outs, its asking to let us enjoy the game, enjoy our more relaxed, less cutthroat competition with one another, and let them enjoy their more cutthroat competition. We each like our side of it, why make one suffer for the other? The only reason I can think is schadenfreude.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Uhh, no. That's not socialism. Forgive me readers, I must digress into elucidating a term that is too heavily skewed by years of propaganda, please skip down if you want no part of this, as it is totally off topic, just as bringing up socialism here. Socialism is a system in which the product of the work of society is distributed to the producers of the product. So, a socialist system is a factory that creates a product, and the workers within that factory decide how it is distributed amongst themselves. It does not have to be even, it does not have to be fair. But the producers must be in control of the product, so that the benefit of the product goes to those that produce and create. Socialism is not giving a man a fish, it is saying that you can get all the fishermen together, and as a group, they decide how to dish out, how to sell, and how to market their fish as a company, without having managers who do not produce the product themselves.

Given that the product in this case is raid mobs, and we don't create raid mobs, this is not even close to socialism. We, the players, don't produce anything. We consume generated pixels for enjoyment.

Further, socialist systems do not historically implode, autocratic regimes historically tend to implode. Remember, your eyes are only good for so much, just as eyes once told us that the earth is flat, but science and empirical observation of the facts in more detailed analysis has shown us that is wrong. Similarly, very little is out there to say that socialist systems collapse on their face, but that's getting into political science with no relevance here.

Back on topic!

It is not about doing no work for it. I'll work damn hard for it, and I work damn hard to be a good person and help out as many of my fellow Necromancers as I can. I work hard at any game that I play, I just don't want an atmosphere of hardcore raiding that is toxic to my mental health. You all can have that, as that is what you want. Rogean's plan provides for it. If you want schadenfreude, then I think the issue is truly indivisible, and it will only continue more conflict. Please see my earlier posts for an elaboration on this point.

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